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In a discussion on another blog, a commenter said: “Not doing anything Jesus wouldn't do is seriously, way totally hard.”
Largely because of my musings about perfection and my New Year's Resolution, I replied with the following (edited to add some things that hit me after I commented):
What if “what Jesus wouldn't do” is way different than most of us imagine? What if what this thread is discussing forces us to re-examine our assumptions (many that have descended through a cultural prism that we classify as corrupted over time) about what His “mortal perfection” means? I agree it still is very hard and unattainable all at once, but even the Bible says Jesus grew “from grace to grace” and “in favor with God and man.”
I think we buy into the incorrect traditions of our fathers too much with regard to many topics, and how we view “what Jesus wouldn't do” is one of them. There is something profoundly disturbing about the idea that “little Lord Jesus no crying he makes” and “he never got vexed when the game went wrong”—and it is related directly to our too common acceptance of totally unrealistic expectations, especially for far too many women I know.
To recap, the real meaning of “perfect” is “complete, finished, fully developed.” The last thing Jesus said, just before He died on the cross, was, “It is finished.” According to Matthew 5:48, He might have said, instead, “I am now perfect.” He grew from grace to grace, line-upon-line until he finally could claim, right before he died, “It is finished.” Why do we suppose we need to short-circuit the process of growth He experienced and be now what He was only at the end?
Alison Moore Smith is a 61-year-old entrepreneur who graduated from BYU in 1987. She has been (very happily) married to Samuel M. Smith for 40 years. They are parents of six incredible children and grandparents to two astounding grandsons. She is the author of The 7 Success Habits of Homeschoolers.
I really liked your thoughts, Ray. I have had discussions (well, arguments if you want to get really technical) with my husband about this over the years. I have always taken issue with the “no crying he made”. I have a book that I love by the artist Rien Poortvliet called He Was One Of Us that chronicles Christ’s life through pictures. He depicts the Christ child crying, nursing, smiling, playing, learning, and so on. I really like that and have never seen another artist do so. If you can find a copy it is a great Easter read.
I made the mistake of posting this right as the “Stand By Your Man” threads were posted. Oops! Just bumping it up a few spots to see it gets any attention. 😉
He did grow from grace to grace as we read but I think most (if not all) of his learning and progression he did in Heaven prior to his coming to Earth. How else could he have been able to be prepared for his mission here on Earth?
LOL Ray. I did read your article, but hadn’t posted yet. I guess I never really interpreted things the same way. I just always assumed he came here like everyone else (obviously under extraordinary circumstances and with divine attributes), and learned and grew as he realized his mission. The lyrics in the songs you mentioned haven’t bothered me because (especially in Away in a Manger) I interpreted it as a temporary condition and not a permanent one. Away in a Manger is speaking about one night when the baby Jesus is sleeping in the manger. It doesn’t mean that it happened that way all of the time (are the cattle lowing constantly?). Of course he cried, at least in my mind. I’m sure there are people out there who believe that he came here perfect and didn’t engage in those human behaviors, but I think especially in our church the attitude is different about it. Most lessons I’ve been in when this has come up, we pretty much agree that “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become”. Christ achieved his perfection very much more quickly than any of us will, but I think the general belief is still that he had to get there as well and wasn’t born that way. That’s my take. I know we’ve talked about the Away in a Manger thing before and that you and Alison disagree with my take, but that’s just how I’ve always thought about it. Also, it’s a universal hymn, not unique to our church. I think our church does interpret it a little differently than other churches might.
Hmmm, this is an interesting thing to ponder. To be honest, I don’t feel very confidant in my knowledge of what the actual doctrine is concerning this subject, other than what Ray said in quoting the scripture, that he “grew from grace to grace.” . The truth is, we know very little about his childhood. And I may very well know less than the rest of you! I admit ignorance. 🙂 But I do have some musings on the matter.
I DO agree that the idea of the infant Jesus never crying seems incredibly absurd.
I also agree that we ALL grow from grace to grace, line upon line, precept upon precept.
On the other hand, I’m not SURE that when the scriptures say that Christ grew from grace to grace that it means that he grew up just like all the rest of us– I mean he DID, but in what ways? He had to learn, had to be taught, etc, etc. But did he hit his brothers and sisters, and have to be told to go to his room? Did he get in arguments and have to learn NOT to? Did he have temper tantrums and eventually learned to control his temper? Did he get his feelings hurt from time to time among friends– I’m sure he did. But did he respond the way many children do? Run off crying, “I hate you! You’re not my friend anymore!” Did he getting whiny with his mother about which child’s turn it was to feed the family goat “But I did it yesterday!! That’s not fair!!” DId he have “my dad can beat up your dad” discussions with his little 8 year old boyhood friends? Is it possible he did ahve these same issues? I guess so. But my intial, gut reaction is more like Yvette’s I guess. I’ve just always felt like he was probably THE most “perfect child” there ever was. Was he actually PERFECT though? Never crying. Never getting “vexed”? (Of course, who ever said that “crying” was a sin?? And who ever said that getting “vexed” and/or upset at something going wrong was a “sin”?)
I would imagine that just like all children, that up to the age of accountability, he WAS “perfect” in the same sense that ALL children are, because they are “sinless” until they are deemed “accountable”. But young children who still aren’t accountable STILL do wrong things. They hit, tell lies, try to get out of trouble by denying responsiblity for things they’ve done wrong, ” I didn’t do it!!” etc. But those things are automatically forgiven as innocent transgressions, since they aren’t accountable yet. (I might not be characterizing that correctly or using the right terminology– but I think you know what I’m trying to say.)
On the other hand, Christ was sinless all his life, not just up until the age of accountability. So he WASN’T “just like all children”. Children past the age of accountability sin. He didn’t. So if BEFORE he reached that age, he was growing from grace to grace in exactly the same sense that other children do (having to learn not to tell lies because he got caught in one, having to learn to control his temper because he hit another child, having to “go to his room” because he got smart with his mother, etc) then that would mean that once he GOT to that age of being accountable, that he’d already become perfect and sinless– right? So I don’t know– it just seems that even though he grew from grace to grace, had to be taught, learn and grow, just like the rest of us, that there was STILL a considerable difference between the boy Jesus and the average child. My initial thought is that he would NOT have done those things (tell a lie, hit a brother or sister, whine and show disrespect to his parents, etc)
All of my children are obedient and likeable. I would even dare to say, more obedient than the average child. Are there other kids even more obedient? Of course. So I don’t mean this a “brag session”– but people love my kids. Their teachers at school, their principals, their teachers at church, Stake leaders, etc are constantly praising my children, to me, to my husband, even to them- for their maturity, (although my son sometimes has the problem of being TOO mature, thereby thinking he’s equal to an adult and therefore has to be put in his place 🙂 their obedience, for their behavior and good manners, their testimonies and knowledge of the gospel,etc. Even in public, at the theater, at the grocery store, etc– people will comment to me how well behaved my children are. (Generally elderly people shopping in the same aisle or waiting in line behind us, or the cashier) Alot of that is a parenting thing– if they’re not TAUGHT the gospel, they don’t learn miraculously know about it. If they’re not properly disciplined, don’t have firm consequences for bad behavior, then they’re not going to behave. But beyond the parenting, I also believe that alot of it is just their nature. Even from the time they were babies- they were very mild mannered and well tempered. No terrible two’s. Additionally, they’ve always seemed to be very in tune with the Spirit. (And don’t misunderstand– they have plenty of arguments between them, they whine about having to do chores, clean their rooms, etc- they ARE typical kids.)
But my thought is, if children can be born with sweet and mild temperments, and a seemingly natural inclination toward things of the Spirit, — if MY children could be that way, how much MORE that way would Jesus have been? So maybe he DIDN’T ever whine to his parents. Maybe he never did get “vexed” when the game went wrong. Not because he NEVER got vexed, we know he did– the cleansing of the temple comes to mind. But that was righteous indignation over a very important and sacred thing. Maybe he had such control over his emotions that he didn’t get vexed over something as simple as a childhood game. And maybe that came NATURALLY to him, as opposed to the way the rest of us have to learn it. Knowing his role in the pre-existance, his having created the earth, having been at the right hand of God, having been the WORD from the very beginning, why couldn’t he have already been “perfect” even as child AND have grown from grace to grace, simultaneously?
Do we even know what ‘grace to grace’ really means in this instance? Maybe it means knowledge. Maybe it means power. Maybe Christ was “the perfect child”. Maybe he was perfectly obedient from the very beginning. Maybe he didn’t commit any of the innocently committed transgressions that unaccountable children do. Maybe the “grace to grace” part was God instilling knowledge or power, piece by piece. I don’t know- just considering the different possibilities. I’d be interested to know what phrase the Bible used before it was translated into English– what the greek or hebrew word was. It may not mean what we THINK it means.
If the veil can be thin for us at times, and is even “thinner” for innocent children who are clean before God, and seemingly even thinner than THAT for some children who just appear to be even more in tune and in touch than other children, (based on faithfulness and growth in the pre-existance I assume) then maybe the veil wasn’t even really THERE for Christ. He could have had the ministering of angels on an almost a constant basis. Maybe he communicated with the Father, the way Adam and Eve did in the Garden? Maybe even more frequently. Maybe daily. Maybe hourly. The truth is, we don’t know, right?
I don’t know— just thinking outloud.
And WOW– I just realized how long I’ve rambled on here—- sorry about that!!
You got me thinking, Ray— you got me thinking!
WOW, ftm! You really got rolling. 🙂
I posted a fairly long comment, but I decided to use it as a separate thread, instead.
Ray, where did your other post go? I read through it and was going to respond, but then it was gone. Where did you move it to?
Sorry, agardner. I thought it should be a separate post, so I deleted it. I will repost it here, so you can respond. Here it is:
I use the song lyrics simply to illustrate the tendency for people to deny, in practical terms, His humanity – His mortal half. I also use them to highlight the way that “perfection” is interpreted now as opposed to in the scriptures themselves.
Just to consider: There is a difference between “sin” and “transgression”. One is a willful choice; one is a mistake made in ignorance or without real choice. The latter “transgression” is MUCH broader than most people realize.
As an example of something pretty serious but done in ignorance, think of a child born in a home where terrorism is taught as a way of life. Great rewards are promised for suicide death in the name of God. If that young boy grows up and carries out a suicide bombing that kills people, is his action a “sin” or a “transgression”? How can we really know for sure – seeing only the result and not what caused it? If he were mentally disabled, we would understand and allow for an exception. How can we be sure exactly what constitutes “mental disability” in God’s eyes?
Another example – a very emotional one: We are commanded to abstain from sex with anyone who is not our spouse. In the case of rape, there is a sin (the one who rapes) AND there is a transgression (the one who is raped). The victim does not sin, even though the commandment truly is broken – since sex outside of marriage has occurred. The Atonement covers that “technical violation”, since it was not done intentionally or willfully. Therefore, the victim remains “clean” in the eyes of God.
Now, turn to the example of Jesus. We know he was subject to the Fall because of his mother’s fallen status. This means that He inherited from her the ability to “sin”, but it also means He inherited from her the same type of weaknesses and inclinations and tendencies to “transgress” as we do from our mortal parents. ***This means that he had to go through the process of overcoming His “natural man” exactly like we do, while never “sinning”.***
Have you ever considered that Jesus was acting in His role as Redeemer not just for everyone else, but also for Himself? Lest I be called a heretic, remember, I also believe He never “sinned” – acted in opposition to what He understood and knew. I’m just saying that we are not held accountable for our transgressions; the Atonement paid for them. Therefore, I believe, the Atonement also paid for His transgressions, as well – those “innocent” mistakes He made as a child and as He was learning and growing from grace to grace. He probably was a more naturally obedient child than most, but I think it’s instructive that, like other prophets, He was not accepted “in His own country” – by those who watched Him grow up as just a normal child in their eyes.
When He condescended to come to earth, He agreed to do so in a way that put Him in subjection to the Fall – so He could experience EVERY aspect of mortality that we do. I believe that in doing so there had to be a way provided for *all* of us to be freed from the effects of the Fall – including He who condescended to become as one of us – in every way other than succumbing to actual sin.
In the end, I return to how “perfection” was applied under the Law of Moses (and in Lucifer’s plan) – never making a mistake and following everything with exactness, generally at threat of punishment. I then look at Matthew 5:48 and see that Jesus defined it as “complete, finished, fully developed” – covering lots of mistakes by allowing for repentance and focusing on spiritual growth toward an eventual completion of character. If we understand this difference, I believe it can change and empower the way we look at Jesus – and our children and our friends and our fellow saints and our leaders – AND OURSELVES, making us much more able to “have joy” in this life and in the life to come.
***We need to quit using “perfect” the way the world uses it and start using it the way that our Savior and Redeemer did.***
Hmmm…thanks for re-posting. I’m going to have to think on this one for awhile, but I do appreciate you putting your comments back up. When I sort out my thoughts I’ll say something more.
BTW, where is Davidson? I haven’t heard from her lately. Thought for sure I’d see her on this thread! Davidson, hope you’re okay!
I have to believe that Jesus was exceptional in his earth life because He was exceptional in the pre-existence; our scriptures tell us so. He grew from grace to grace, but probably more gracefully than the rest of us. I know He worried his parents when He was twelve and came up missing; maybe perfect boys wouldn’t worry their parents. But maybe it was a lack of faith for his parents to be worrying! He had a mission like no other, and His mother and stepfather had to come to grips with that. His first loyalty was to His Father, and the scriptures remind us that it was Mary who had to be schooled about His mission, Mary who had to ponder things in her heart, Mary who took longer to accept the inevitable; Jesus instinctively knew what He must do. Gives one so much to think about concerning parenting. Sometimes we just need to get out of the way and let them be who they were meant to be.
“Sometimes we just need to get out of the way and let them be who they were meant to be.”
PROFOUND!