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“Mom, why did you have so many kids?”
A reasonable question by a seven year old with ten other brothers and sisters.
“Well, we really wanted to stop with Angela,” (number five in the line up) “but they just kept coming” my mom offered by way of explanation.
It was at that moment that I formed the opinion that I was destined to have loads of babies, so I told myself to get used to it and pray that I would like them all.
Fast forward to the present. I am 32 years old, we have four children, two boys and two girls (isn't there something so attractive about symmetry!), and we are definitely content with the size of our family and feel strongly, for many reasons, that we don't want to have any more children. We are, however, leaving the door open for a possible future in the foster care system or with adoption.
With this decision having been made, we looked into various birth control options, and have been leaning towards a vasectomy. Now, I realize that the topic of birth control is a hot topic, especially among very religious people including those who are LDS, but I'd like to share a bit about what I have experienced lately through conversations with friends and family and a reading of the history of what the church leaders have said on the subject. There was a wealth of information, so I'll just highlight some points that were of particular interest to me.
I suppose it comes with the stage in life, but until about a year ago I never thought much about permanent measures of birth control. Then as various friends and family members got to the point where they were finished with child bearing it would come up in conversations. It seems to me that among those with whom we associate that getting a vasectomy is the most popular method. Brian and I talked briefly about it and we both thought it was a great idea for when the time came. It never even entered my head that there would be an issue of any kind as far as church policy is concerned until my sister-in-law told me that she was in favor of my brother getting a vasectomy, but he was resisting because of the council given in the General Handbook of Instructions on the subject. Well this was news to me! Here is what it states:
Husbands must be considerate of their wives, who have a great responsibility not only for bearing children but also for caring for them through childhood. Husbands should help their wives conserve their health and strength. Married couples should seek inspiration from the Lord in meeting their marital challenges and rearing their children according to the teachings of the gospel.
The First Presidency has declared:
We seriously deplore the fact that members of the Church would voluntarily take measures to render themselves incapable of further procreation.
Surgical sterilization should only be considered (1) where medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health, or (2) where birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the person or persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop (or branch president) and receive divine confirmation through prayer.”
(1989 General Handbook of Instructions, Chapter 11)
As stated in the title of a 2004 BYU NewsNet article, “LDS Church [is] not opposed to birth control.” So I suppose this meant only the non-surgical methods? Throughout the last century there has been a monumental change in what church leaders have counseled. Here is some council the members of the church were given before the 1989 edition of the handbook :
I have told tens of thousands of young folks that when they marry they should not wait for children until they have finished their schooling and financial desires. Marriage is basically for the family, and there should be no long delay. They should live together normally and let the children come.
(Spencer W. Kimball, “Marriage is Honorable,” Speeches of the Year, 1973, p. 263)
Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by.
(First Presidency {David O. McKay, Hugh B. Brown, N. Eldon Tanner} Letter to presidents of stakes, bishops of wards, and presidents of missions, 14 April 1969)
When the husband and wife are healthy, and free from inherited weaknesses and disease that might be transplanted with injury to their offspring, the use of contraceptives is to be condemned.
(David O. McKay, Conference Report, October 1943, p. 30)
Obviously things have changed throughout the years. We are then led to ask ourselves interesting questions: what exactly is “doctrine”? What is the difference in doctrine, council, and suggestions? Will the position of the church on vasectomies change in the future?
There is no guarantee that once someone becomes president of the Church that he is will be immune from making inaccurate, unscientific, or even undoctrinal statements. Discourses of Brigham Young is packed with information, and he said a lot of things as president of the Church that wouldn't fit into our modern perception of the gospel. However, if there is any gray area, I personally would rather be on the side of the prophet and our church leaders.
On one hand I could rationalize my situation and say that it would be dangerous medically for me to have another child, so for us it will be okay. On the other hand, the comment from David O. McKay and his councilors about “reaping disappointment” strikes an unbelievable amount of fear into my heart. But should any decision be made because of fear instead of faith?
When I do this kind of critical thinking a scene comes to mind from the movie The Fiddler on the Roof where the main character, Tevye, is thinking to himself about two sides to a situation with his daughter. After going back and forth a couple of times between arguments on both sides he finally ends the internal debate and loudly states, “There is no other hand!”
The conclusion I have come to is this: personal answers to sincere and humble prayers are the ultimate authority. Before we do anything we will put it before the Lord.
Alison Moore Smith is a 61-year-old entrepreneur who graduated from BYU in 1987. She has been (very happily) married to Samuel M. Smith for 40 years. They are parents of six incredible children and grandparents to two astounding grandsons. She is the author of The 7 Success Habits of Homeschoolers.
wow. if I was ever to question why I didn’t get my tubes tied after this last baby, this is it. For the life of me, I could not figure out why I was having such a struggle, and even had the papers signed, and ready to go. When my doctor walked in and said, “Are we all set for tomorrow?”, I looked at him and said “nope, not gonna do it!” I had just had a very overwhelming feeling that I was not to do it. Now I am so glad that I didn’t. I read this to my husband, and he was flabbergasted. He said “Good thing we didn’t do it huh?”
Thank you for reaffirming to me that the choice I made was the right one!
Wow, thank you for this post. I particularly like the quote from the general handbook about husbands being considerate of their wives’ needs and health. This gives me a lot to think about. I don’t think either my husband or I have ever planned on a permanant birth control, but the decision to have each child has been a prayerful one. I become even more prayerful, the more I have. I don’t want to lose my mind along the way. :confused:
I’m of the opinion that vasectomies and getting your tube’s tied is between you, your spouse, and Heavenly Father, no one else. While I don’t have quotes, I am of the understanding that the church leaders now teach that the timing of children, and how many to have, and how many you can afford, is up to the couple and God. I think they are starting to realize just how much more expensive it is to give birth in this day and age. My husband and I have been married for almost five years, and have no children. While I have longed for them the whole time, and never understand in the moment of longing why we aren’t having any, as I look back at what the first 5 years of marriage have been like for us (multiple moves, living in a couple of apartments we dubbed “The Armpits”, living with his parents in a one room basement, etc.), I am sadly grateful that we were told “Not Yet.” So without birth control, what could we have done? Not had “fun” one week a month? Unfortunately, that wouldn’t work for us, as I’m not regular at all. If you KNOW and your spouse KNOWS that getting a vasectomy/your tubes tied is the right thing to do, I say go for it. Beside, if all of a sudden you realize that you ARE supposed to have another child, both are reversible. This is just my opinion, and therefore I reserve the right to change my mind later if I desire! 😉
Thanks for another great article, Rachel.
When I got pregnant at 39 with Caleb (totally part of the long-term plan) that I was SOOOOOO old to be pregnant. It wore so heavily on me. Fortunately our spacing plan worked out OK and I was able to have all six (with 11 pregnancies). But as far as I can tell (and have been able to discern for over a decade) this is an acceptable family to God.
If I got pregnant again, of course, I would rejoice over the baby. And it’s possible as we have prayerfully chosen NOT to take any permanent measures–even though we feel “done.” But we DO, right now, feel done. And the older we get, the “doner” we probably are. (Sam is five years my senior.)
At the same time, I know many in similar positions who have chosen to have surgery and I don’t feel a moral problem with it, if done prayerfully.
One close friend, for example, has a very large family, was having serious (though not al all life-threatening) women’s health issues, and sincerely felt that she could not manage being pregnant again. Her prayers resulted in the answer, “It is enough!” Still, I am not suggesting that all those conditions must apply for God to grant such an answer.
FWIW, I have a hard time understanding why a wife would tie her tubes rather than the husband having a vasectomy. :confused:
Because the exact same chronological age might be old for a woman to have babies, young for a man to stop.
I was in my late 30s when I had my tubes tied, following birth of #5. It is very safe and easy right after childbirth, virtually no added risk if by c-section.
My reasoning was that if I died in the next 15 years, I would want my husband (who is the same age) to be able to have children with his new wife. So I had the surgery.
If we were making the decision at a time OTHER than childbirth, the risks and dynamics would be very different and would certainly favor vasectomy.
Naismith, you are a generous woman. I honestly don’t know if I would want my husband to have more children with another wife if I passed away. I guess I am still too selfish. :confused:
Fwiw, I am with Naismith on this one. We are positive we are done, and I am reaching the age where I’m not sure I would want any more even if Michelle died and I remarried, but that possibility does exist – as much as I don’t want to contemplate it. So, in our situation, if we took a “permanent, surgical” solution, it would be tying her tubes. In another 5-10 years, it would be me.
Rachel, I haven’t said so officially, so – “Welcome aboard.”
I know my husband and I have a relatively small family and are still quite young, but this is a topic we’ve discussed and come to a pretty firm decision. My husband and I both agree that cutting a woman open via full on abdominal surgery is absolutely unnecessary. We agree that the only reason for a women to have her tubes tied is if she is already cut open for a c-section. Abdominal surgery can be ridiculously risky, almost life threatening on its own. A mans procedure is much simpler and easier. Yes the recovery is rough….for any man, but its not as bad as the recovery from an abdominal procedure on a woman.
We agree that if any point I need a c-section and we have prayed and know we are “done” then I’ll get my tubes tied. If I keep giving birth to my kiddos naturally then hes up for the task. I think its rather noble. Its true both are reversible if given the appropriate funding or insurance.
Has anyone heard about the new non-invasive womens sterilization? Its crazy! Its called Essure.
As far as being on a longer term birth control I am a huge fan of IUD’s….also called IUC’s.
Since we are candidly sharing I have an IUD and it is great. Works for 5 years, PMS and related issues almost non existant. Had one before my last baby and got preggers after having it taken out (it didn’t damage any equipment). They are not the scary contraptions of old wives’ tales. I LOVE IT.
As far as all those quotes- check the dates. It was mentioned that they were old but we have just had very recent council from Elder Ballard on this issue. That is far more important than quotes of 30-60 years ago.
Is Vasectomy really a non-reversive permanent solution? You hear of men having them reversed all the time (anyone see that recent ‘Office’ episode? 🙂
Wow, Rachel, very well written. I too agree with naomlette. I would like to actually hear their quotes from recent years on the matter. I think that the thinking has evolved as everything has to with a changing world. I never thought of asking my husband to do this as I know men cringe when talking about such a delicate matter. I guess it would be nice to not have to worry about any prevention methods but I always considered it an unnecessary surgery as there are other alternatives that don’t require snipping at a mans private parts. For me this is an non issue but reading your article makes me realize that for many LDS people this could be a very controversial issue. Love the thought provoking issues you write about.
Just to clarify, a woman having surgical sterilization after vaginal delivery is not usually “cut open.” It is performed lapariscopically, with only a small incision at the navel, so there is no scar afterward. If a woman had epidural for delivery, they leave the tube in place for the surgery and so there is no additional risk from that placement.
This is much easier than a vasectomy, at least for the guys I know.
That was precisely my point! I wanted to give some historical background. The position of the church changes over the years. Should we dismiss all that was said a long time ago? What remains, and what is dismissed as antiquated? Who decides when a previous counsel is now supplanted with a “new” position? What will they say in 10 years? Some critics say that the church sometimes follows social norms vs. following the direction of the Lord (that’s subject for another discussion). Of course we’d like to think that both is possible. Just some questions that run around in my brain sometimes. Anyway, I guess should have made it more clear why I included quotes from years ago. And yes of course, vasectomies are reversable. I shouldn’t have used the word permanent.
“Do you have any idea how painful THREE vasectomies are?” – Michael Scott, The Office
LOVE the office!! ha ha ha
i’m not trying to put down the idea of getting tubal or the “invasivness” of the procedure. but after reading naismiths comment i wanted to follow up for women who were now wondering . if you had a c-section the tubal is done while wide open. if all you’ve had is vaginal deliveries, yes it is usually done via a laporoscopic procedure. if anyone has every had a lap, you’ll know its more receovery than most people think. i suffer from endometriosis and have avoided a lap for the past 5 years. one of my best friends was diagnosed with endo at 14 and has had at least 13 surgeries since, all of which included a partial or full lap. the lap always has 2-4 entry points. as they need one point for instruments and one point for the camera. luckily sometimes one of those points can be through the belly button. the horrible part of having a laproscopic procedure…the scar tissue. the biggest reason to avoid the lap despite dealing with endo for the past 6 years was to avoid the scar tissue. scar tissue in a womens abdomen can create havoc. havoc i say! scar tissue and adhesions can create some of the worst pain you’ve ever experienced other than child birth. just another reason to avoid abdominal surgery in general.
i personally think when its over in the baby making department i’ll just have an IUD placed every 5 years or so…until menopause. but then again my hubby may say its time to pray about him getting the big snip. we will see….its at least 7-10 years away in my eyes.
jen- i’ve had 2 iud’s so far. i pretty much loved every minute of having them. after this baby is born i plan on getting a mirena iud. i’ve heard similar things to what you said. i’ve never had mirena, only the copper (which are good for 10 years) and had some side effects and would like to see the difference. i love not taking a pill, or applying a patch, and being able to be spontaneous.
delmar, I agree with you. Even a laproscopic tubal is more complicated than a vasectomy. I’ve know several people who have had vasectomies (bil, best friend’s husband) and they are a little sore the next day but nothing dramatic. Compared to what women go through it is nothing really.
My sil had a tubal the day after her last vaginal delivery. She didn’t think the surgery itself was bad, but did say her recovery was much more difficult than with her other births. She also had odd pain for about a year afterwards – possibly unrelated to the tubal, but most likely a side effect.
I personally had a tubal during c-section. That in itself also has its own complications. In my case, the doctor’s believed I would need a hysterectomy at delivery – the tubal was almost an afterthought because there was a 90% chance of the hyster. However, when they got in there, they were able to keep the uterus, but tied the tubes (the doctors’ recommendation due to serious complications in 2 of my 3 pregnancies.
I was under general anesthesia at the time so I remember nothing of the surgery (or the next couple of days, actually), but I do know that I have since had a lot of similar pain to what my sil described (kind of a “popping” feeling in my sides).
I don’t regret doing the tubal because the risks were just too high for me with another pregnancy. However, if I had a normal vaginal delivery or were to go in later for sterilization, I would definitely opt for the vasectomy for him.
From a doctrinal standpoint, I think we just have to use wisdom in all things. Make the decision prayerfully and wisely.
I still haven’t mastered the quotes thingy…..
“He considers himself and equal partner in having AND in not having kids.”
Amen to that!!!
IMHO: Thats where I think some men are actually trying to do the noble thing. Step up guys!!! If your wife can carry 4-13 babies for 9-10 months each and then give birth to them I think its pretty minimal to have a pair of scissors near your manhood, in an in office procedure, that costs 1/4 as much and has minimal if pretty much no side effects. Wow! But yes its still something to pray about.
Just remember when it matters most we will become whole again, in our most perfect state!
In a recent Doctrine and Covenants class I learned about this issue:
From that and other materials presented in the class my understanding is that anytime a new stance is put forth by someone in authority it supercedes the previous counsel. So I guess in that light the date of the quote doesn’t matter as long as another stance has not been more recently put forth. The quotes you presented are interesting to consider in light of those times. But our times are different and we have been given different counsel. I only disagree with posting the quotes because they cloud the issue which has already been plainly put by those in authority:
In My Own Opinion-
it was wrong to post a quote from the church handbook. If that were supposed to be public knowledge it would be on the church website or even in a general conference address. I would hate someone to misunderstand the church’s position, the quotes from the handbook should be given by proper priesthood authority and accompanied by their personal counsel.
All of that said I don’t want you to feel I personally disagree with the choice you have made Rachel. The very reason I have an IUD and we haven’t done anything more permanent is because we don’t want to regret it later. These are obviously issues of the heart and I can tell you are a thoughful educated woman (and how could I not appreciate someone who loves ‘the Office’ too?)
That certainly wasn’t the case for us. We planned the surgery even before we got pregnant the last time, and had a complication with delivery precluded the postpartum surgery, the vasectomy was second choice. I would not consider having the invasive procedure that is a non-postpartum tubal.
I understand the concern about adhesions, etc. but that is much less of an issue with a postpartum tubal. Because the organs haven’t contracted yet, the tubes are right up near the navel. When I had mine done, they only did one incision because they pulled the tubes outside for the cauterization/clipping, and they don’t have to use gas to inflate the area. Any pain I had from that surgery paled in comparison with the pain of uterine contractions with breastfeeding a baby who had a healthy suck. I went home a few hours later. A few years later when I had major laparoscopic abdominal surgery, I questioned whether they would be able to use the navel as one of the incision sites due to scar tissue/adhesions, but it was fine.
I totally appreciate that every body is different, of course. I couldn’t tolerate an IUD. (If I had, we might not have considered the surgery.)
This assumes I would remarry. It’s highly unlikely that a woman in her late 30s would find another worthy partner in the few years of fertility remaining to her, especially if she is sealed to another man. I don’t know any of my widowed friends who has. Since I had the last one late, I would have been too busy raising our kids during that brief window of time.
Biology would argue otherwise, however. DId God make a mistake on that one?
I guess I don’t understand…if you love your husband, wouldn’t you want him to be happy and have a full life, even if you were called home early? I assume that everyone else has also written a letter to the second wife welcoming her to the family, and put it with the will, just in case.
So does my husband. And he doesn’t feel he has to prove it as a test of manhood by getting a vasectomy, when another option made sense to us.
Naismith, I’d like to clarify that my post was specifically addressed to neither you nor your husband. Since you already said you had your TL following a c-section and I already said that I could see that might be a mitigating factor, I thought that was obvious. I’m sorry that it was not.
For the record, I personally know at least seven men who have asked their wives to get TLs while personally refusing “the snip” because they don’t want any cutting near–as delmar said–their manhood. It creeps them out, but they don’t want any more kids either.
Now that’s a really weird argument in this thread. Since we are talking about CHOOSING sterilization we’re already talking about ignoring biology. You got a TL. Did God make a mistake by not putting you through early menopause?
To be clear, no, I don’t think he did and I don’t think you defied him in getting your TL instead of just following biology. But choosing a vasectomy before your body shuts down sperm production isn’t likely to be a condemnation of God’s timing, either.
I think the talk of second wives and more children is quite interesting. Something a lot of people don’t understand either. Per a conversation with a Bishop…with quotes from the handbook and genealogical knoweldge I have a VERY good personal understanding of what happens with second husbands/wives.
If I were to die and my husband was re-sealed for time (but not all eternity, cause its not possible) do you realize any children that women bears are sealed to me? Interesting huh?
Yes I also understand that Heavenly Father sorts all this stuff out when its necessary. My hubby has mentioned several times that getting re-married would be like starting all over again, which isn’t something that appeals to him or me. We’ve also mentioned that (heaven forbid) something happen to either of us….we wouldn’t want our being together in the eternities at risk by being with someone else/in an innapropriate relationship without being sealed. Its kinda a catch 22.
Has anyone really written a “welcome letter” to another spouse?
There is a difference between a woman being sealed to a second hubby after her 1st passes, verses the example above. Its similar but, different.
Delmar your husband can be sealed for time and all eternity to someone if you die. Just sayin.
Naismith Im glad for your input but you seem to only want to come here to counter what others say especially Allison. I think your a smart woman, but wish you would give more positive input at least some times. Id like to know what you like instead of just what you dont like.
Im not trying to be critical but I think we could all be better if we saw the positve side some times because you have good things to add.
now i have to say that my husband is a good guy but he wont hear about a v. no way. He said what if the doctor slips? but he does want me to get my tubes tied because he dosn’t want to use birth control anymore. So i know it happens.
Sorry if I misled.
I had a totally unmedicated birth. I had an epidural for the surgery the next morning.
But since there was always a risk of a c-section, I had paperwork already on file to do the tubal right then should a c-section become reality.
Guess I’ll throw my two-cents’ worth in. (I hope you will be gentle with me.)
A husband and wife need to decide together, but why not widen the wedding to three? God needs to be in the decision from the start. It could be a decision for just two, but I think He would be so pleased if you were to voluntarily include Him in the equation. Nothing wrong with saying, (assuming it’s physically possible to choose), “Heavenly Father, I’ll go where you want me to go. I’ll say what you want me to say. I’ll do what you want me to do. My husband and I would like to have three children, (or four or six or twelve). How many would you like us to have?” But if you ask, you need to be prepared to receive His answer and act upon it. I think He is very interested in getting His spirit children here. If His work and His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, and if that is dependent upon their coming to earth to gain bodies, I’m sure He would like us to have several; it would help Him with His eternal mission. But He, more than anyone else, knows the strengths and weaknesses of each married couple, their financial and spiritual and emotional situations, and what would be wise specifically for them. And maybe that answer won’t come in one nice, neat number. For us, it was having a baby, then praying to know, “Are we done now? Or are there others you would like us to have?” (And hugs to the ones who want so much to have them and just can’t. I know this is a heart-wrenching discussion for you. :grouphug:)
I REALLY, REALLY debated about telling you this. It is a sacred story to me, and I don’t share it lightly. I hope you won’t take it lightly. I even prayed about telling you. Our first three girls were three years apart. Then we had babies in 1986 and 1987. In 1988 I found out I was pregnant again. I WAS NOT HAPPY. We had been using a form of birth control, but apparently not carefully enough. (Sheesh. My older sister had an IUD, her husband had a vasectomy, and they STILL had a baby. There was no milkman. The baby was born early because the IUD caused her to hemmorhage. ) I was working in the YW and my husband was in the Elder’s Quorum presidency, and I felt overwhelmed. We had that fifth baby, and I really struggled with my emotions the whole time. Some are going to hate me for this, but having babies faster than you feel able to care for them is at LEAST as difficult as not being able to have them when you want to have them. I’ve been in both situations. After the fifth one was born, I prayed to know if our family was complete, but I prayed the way Carol Lynn Pearson speaks of in this poem:
“I am becoming very proficient at prayer,
I must admit.
I give the prayer,
and I answer it.”
I didn’t pray about it very fervently. I wanted to be done. I got up from my knees and started talking to my husband about a vasectomy, which he was willing to have. He had it, and everything went smoothly.
One day I was lying on my bed reading in the Old Testament about Joseph of the coat of many colors. Someone said out loud to me, “You have another son somewhere, and his name is Joseph.”
(I had this whole thing typed up for you when you were talking about having another baby, Kiar, but I just couldn’t bring myself to push the “Add your comments” button. The Spirit has continued to remind me that I should share it with you, so I guess I have his approval.) I actually looked around the room to see who had spoken. No one was there. I thought, no you don’t. My husband has had his vasectomy, we have five beautiful children, and we’re DONE. Silence. And then as I thought about it and prayed about it, I asked in dismay, “Do we really have another son to come to us who should be named Joseph?” “Yes.” So, dragging my spiritual feet, I said in resignation, “Thy will be done.” I waited. I feel kind of stupid about this now. Since the voice had seemed so miraculous, I felt sure we would become pregnant, in spite of the vasectomy, maybe because my sister did. I waited a year. Nothing happened. I finally realized that if anything was going to happen, I would have to take steps to ensure that it did. I talked to my husband about what had happened and asked how he would feel about a vasectomy reversal. He was concerned because he hadn’t received any such revelation, but as he prayed about it, he felt a confirming witness of the Spirit that it was the right thing for our family. So he scheduled a vasectomy reversal. The urologist who performed the surgery was a stake president, and even he questioned our sanity. I didn’t tell him why we wanted to have another one. He told us that vasectomy reversals are only successful about 50% of the time. The insurance company told us that while they do pay for a vasectomy, they NEVER pay for a vasectomy reversal. We were pretty poor then (as we still are now), and coming up with $3000 dollars in cash seemed impossible. But we plowed ahead, and we arranged to take the money out of our retirement fund, a process that takes six weeks at the least. We secured the money and put it in a bank account.
You’re not going to believe this. I didn’t believe it either. One day we got a phone call from the insurance company, and the lady on the phone said, “You are making insurance history. This company has NEVER paid for a vasectomy reversal before. We’ve heard from the top that they are going to pay for your vasectomy reversal one hundred percent.” Which they did. I thought surely it was a sign that everything was going to be smooth sailing from there on out.
I was pregnant two weeks after the vasectomy reversal, and by then I had become excited about it.
(When my husband told his dad that we were pregnant after only two weeks, he blushed and said,
“What a man!” in his thick Dutch accent. Then we all blushed.)
It was not good. At six weeks I started bleeding, and I felt so bad. The doctor told me I was having a miscarriage. But the bleeding stopped. I went to the doctor again and told him how lousy I felt. He just laughed and said I probably had the flu, and to go home and rest and drink a lot of liquids. I went home, but I felt worse every day, and people kept telling me how pale I was. It hurt to walk and sit and stand, and I looked like I was six months pregnant. Long story short, I started bleeding again after a week and was in horrible pain. My husband took me back to this doctor and insisted that he do something (and he is not an insistent man.) They sent me to have an ultrasound. The ultrasound showed that I had a ruptured tubal pregnancy. Even with all of today’s technology, tubal pregnancies continue to be life-threatening. They rushed me right to surgery. There was no baby, the fallopian tube had exploded, and I had been bleeding for a week. The surgeon on call said if I’d gone another twelve hours, I would have been dead. After I had the surgery, I also developed a deep internal staph infection, and that was pretty bad for awhile.
It was so hard, after everything we’d gone through to have that baby. We waited awhile. I went to the temple and prayed, “Lord, do we really have another son whose name is Joseph? I really need to know.” The impression came to my mind that I had NOT ONLY one more son, but TWO, and the impression was put in my mind, “Sons of thunder.” (HUH?) It was also made known that there was another girl, but there was something unclear about the girl.
So, timidly, we started the process again. I delivered a healthy. . .baby. . .girl. Man, I was so shocked in the delivery room. (They had tried to determine the sex of the baby with ultrasound, but the private parts were hidden from view.) OH, I was disillusioned. But that baby girl was so easy to love, and I really enjoyed her.
Two years later, I gave birth to Joseph. And it felt very right. Then two years later we had another baby boy, (and if you could hear them play together, you’d know why they had the nickname Sons of Thunder.) Then I had two more miscarriages right in a row, and then I had another baby girl. (I still don’t know why she wasn’t mentioned specifically when I was praying about it in the temple, but I’m very glad she’s with us.) With nine, I finally felt at peace. I knew they were all here. I’d had twelve kidney stone surgeries by then, and it just seemed like my body had done all it could do. We felt complete.
Get this. They were going to tie my one remaining fallopian tube when I had the last little girl.
While he was working in my abdomen, the surgeon, who had performed the surgery when I had the ruptured tubal pregnancy USED THE TIP OF HIS SCALPEL to “look at” the scar tissue where the other fallopian tube had been. He slipped and made a big cut there, accidentally, and I was bleeding all over the place. He yelled for help to come, paged other surgeons in the hospital, but nobody would come, because they didn’t want to be sued. He finally got the bleeding under control, but the neat little slit he made under my navel to do the laparascopy had to be widened very quickly, and now it’s a wide squiggly scar, instead of small, straight neat scar. I didn’t sue him.
Heck, he saved my life once before. I owed him.
I guess I’m gonna be the bad guy and blow the whistle about IUDs. The surgeon said I had the ruptured tubal pregnancy because of the scar tissue that was formed when I had a copper IUD. ESPECIALLY if you have a family history of diabetes or are prone to inflammation for other reasons, DO NOT have an IUD, no matter how convenient you think they are. (It’s also kind of inconvenient to lose your life.) It’s tempting to think, “It won’t happen to me”–but how do you know? I didn’t think it would happen to me, either. My sister didn’t think she’d have an IUD causing hemorrhaging and early delivery of a baby she hadn’t planned to have. Really study the statistics. Think long and hard about it, if that’s the birth control you’re planning to use.
Sorry for being the bummer. And good luck, all of you, with the decisions about your children. I also think it’s worth mentioning that Sister Beck reminded us of the responsibility we have concerning children in her last (infamous) talk. Really, really pray about it. Fast about it. I know Heavenly Father will lead you along.
I totally agree. IUD is so the way to go, had one after my first babe, no menstrual cycles and got prego when we wanted right after removing. I had the mirena and LOVED it. I would recommend it, but only if your insurance covers it. It is expensive if it doesn’t. We just found out our insurance now doesn’t and so are having to figure out a different means because can’t afford 1100 out of pocket… there is always abstinance, right?
Oh and in regard to second wives… that isn’t happening, I told my hubby we are only allowed to die at the same time, so there is no need to think about finding someone to keep you company when the other moves on :bigsmile: And IF that doesn’t happen, I told him he signed up for the long run, whether I am there or not, so again, no need for a second wife 🙂
( I talk lightheartedly about, but we really have discussed and neither believes they would remarry if the other were to move on first, so it isn’t a concept in our minds )
I’m not sure what IUD’s are like nowdays (I’ve never used one), but my mom had a very similar experience to Davidson’s in the early 80’s. After that, she made me swear I would never use an IUD, and I never did. We used either natural methods or the pill until after our third pregnancy when I had the tubal. Not that I’m discouraging anyone from using an IUD, but just be aware of the risks (having said that, there are also risks with the pill, and every other method I can think of except for natural methods). Use wisdom and prayer.
Davidson, you have the most amazing stories. I love to hear them.
IUD have come a long way sine the 80’s, I cannot imagine a copper t insertion, the mirena is plastic, very flexible, easily inserted and easily removed. My mom had similar concerns when I told her that was what we were using after my first babe.
Personally, I would never use an IUD. Just putting it out there, so there’s no confusion.
For some people (my sisters and I) the pill is more dangerous than an IUD. Because of the hormone crazies we would kill someone.
Yes, Ray, your use of an IUD would be quite interesting… and I will leave it at that :bigsmile:
Ray. I think you should be implanted with a fallopian tube and an IUD. If someone is going to make medical history, it might as well be you, right? You’re comfortable with your masculinity. And you could sign and sell 8 X 10 glossies of yourself and make millions. (I’ll buy the first one.)
davidson, thank you so much for sharing your story. It actually makes me want to cry from all my mixed emotions. I so understand how you felt after five kids. I feel that way now with four. I am so overwhelmed that today when my 3 year old dropped a full jar of applesauce and broke it, I wanted to sit and cry because I had to clean up the mess. But, I couldn’t because I was too empty to even have tears. I want so badly to say I am done having kids, but I don’t think we are. I just think we need to wait until it is manageable. Your story gave me hope.
I used birth control pills when we first got married and mini-pills while nursing. They never seemed to bother me (that I noticed or realized at the time). After I stopped nursing #3, I tried to go back on regular birth control pills, but they made me crazy. After I tried three different ones (and was extremely angry at my husband for “putting me through this”), I decided that I just couldn’t take them anymore. It wasn’t worth it. I was trying to figure out how to break it to my husband that he was going to have to find another method to use when he called from work and said, “I think you need to stop taking the pill”. Thank you! I tried the mini pill after #4, but it also whacked me out. I think my hormones are so messed up that I need a break to regulate. But, I am never using hormone birth control again. I think we are just going to try “natural” methods. I am glad my husband is supportive. I think he likes a wife who is not crazy angry all the time (and who is actually interested in him – that was a major problem with the pill. I had no interest in him whatsoever. Personal, I know, but I wish I would have understood that when I was taking the pill as a newlywed. I’m glad he stuck it out with me).
Ray, you could even be on Oprah.
Hugs to you, Tink. Hang in there.
Davidson, thank you so much! I love your story, it made me teary eyed! (luckily, My husband just pretends he doesn’t hear me when I tell him stuff like there are more kids out there for us).
Tink, I can totally hear you on the wanting to be done! I vowed up and down that I was finished, and there was no more in store for us… I have had those days when all of them are yelling, and throwing things and the little one is screaming, and I just have no idea what to do, and then my 3 year old climbs onto my lap, cradles my face in his pudgy little hands, and says “I love you momma!” Or my 7 year old makes her brothers chees tortillas without being asked, and announces, “hey mom, does this count as service?” Sometimes my 5 year old looks at me in my ratty old sweats, and hair pulled back in a raggedy pony tail, and grins “Mommy, you’re pretty, and you have gorgeous hair!” It’s holding my 6 month old after she’s finally cried herself to sleep, and she’s still having the little body shudders and big sighs, and she cuddles into my curves, and I know that the Lord is nearby, hold my hand. That’s when I know that it will all turn out, and I can make it just one more day. Sometimes its all we can do to make it one more day, but eventually, we can make it two, then a week, then before we know it, they are out the door, on to their own adventures, and having babies of their own.
(It reminds me of the new Trace Adkins song “you’re gonna miss this” if you can take a minute to listen to it, its awesome)
I am so glad to be on this site, it means so much to have sisters to talk to and who listen!
Well, you made me cry, too. You captured the whole momma thing really well.
Well, I already look like I’m about 7 months pregnant, so I might be able to pull it off without anyone noticing. It’s getting the maternity leave that might be difficult.
Oh, and a C-section is a given.
Honestly, I need more of those moments. I feel like my whole day is a struggle – struggle to get the kids ready for school, struggle to get the baby to eat anything other than breastmilk, struggle to keep 3 year old dressed (he prefers naked), struggle to get them to nap, struggle to get homework done, struggle to convince 5 year old to go to soccer that HE chose to play, struggle to get everyone to eat dinner, struggle to get them to go to bed. I’ve all but given up the struggle to keep the house clean. It’s not worth the struggle! Struggle, struggle, struggle. I feel like that is my life. Elder Ballard’s talk gave me hope. I like that he said, “First, recognize that the joy of motherhood comes in moments. There will be hard times and frustrating times. But amid the challenges, there are shining moments of joy and satisfaction.” I am really trying hard to find those moments.
(And sorry if this is the most depressing comment ever. Thank you for the hug davidson. I needed it!)
Big, big hugs, Tink. I remember that feeling so well.
Ray, I don’t. . .know what. . .to say.
*bows deeply, while grinning stupidly*
Tink, I’m there with you. Don’t think about having more children while you are struggling with taking care of the ones you have. DH and I decided we were done at 3, another came along and she is great. Sometimes I would wonder why I wasn’t to be the mother of more, I’m beginning to know. I’m dealing with major health issues, pain and fatigue among other things. This is my answer to why we aren’t having more children. Every life is different, only God knows what is in your future, which is why these sacred decisions involve Him and your spouse and outside opinions and comments should be kept at arm’s length. What an amazing life davidson has had in gaining her children, miracles and blessings (thank you for sharing it all) but it is hers, your story is different.
Thank you jendoop.
Yup, Tink, Jendoop is right. Emotional health is as important as any other kind of health. When you’re feeling overwhelmed, it is not the time to consider having another child. Okay, I’m tiptoeing. . .have you considered an anti-depressant? Saved my life. It takes a good month until it’s working properly, but oh, what a huge difference it made for me! And it’s not your fault, but messing around with different strengths of hormones really can whack out the chemicals in your brain. An antidepressant can even them out again. Hey, it’s not a weakness to need one.
And if I’m stepping way, way over my bounds, I apologize. Hugs.
You should have seen the reaction my husband gave me when I asked if he’d ever get a vasectomy. You would have thought I’d asked him to hand over his man-hood. I think getting your tubes tied or a vasectomy is far to ‘permanent’ for me. There very well might come a time when I desire another baby.
That said, I don’t think it’s any of my business if someone else has it done. I agree, it’s between the couple and God.
I looked into getting an IUD but what turned me off (ray close your eyes) was several things including that you have to have it put in when your on your period. That the side effects are death or infertility… I’d choose death. I don’t like having those in my odds at all.
But I can’t use hormonal B.C. (like pills) cause I go psycho emotional. It really messes up my hormones, so now I use a diaphragm and love it!
If the church came out tomorrow and said that we couldn’t use birth control any more, I honestly think I’d ignore the command. I don’t have a set number on the amount of children I want but until someone offers to raise them for me (and carry them in utero) I’ll be the one deciding when to have them.
Davidson, no need to apologize. It’s a good question. I had never had feelings like this ever in my life until after #4. I thought I was going crazy. Then I found out that my thyroid is off and started taking the Synthroid. It made a huge difference. I don’t think that I am depressed, but I have a lot more empathy for people who struggle with depression. I used to think, “Just get over it. Just make a choice to be happy”. Now I realize that the chemicals and hormones in our body can take over. At one point, I sincerely had no hope. I thought, “This is scary!” I’ve read a lot about the thyroid, and I have concluded that my thyroid levels are related to my estrogen levels. Pregnancy and nursing and birth control all do crazy things to me now. Maybe they didn’t before, but considering that I have been doing one of the three constantly (except for about 4 months before getting pregnant with #4), I just think my body is out of control. My doctor lowered my Synthroid level around Christmas. I am working on weaning #4 right now (I have 6 days before Women’s Conference). I really feel that once I wean him and can stablize my estrogen levels and thyroid levels that I will be fine and back to my normal self.
Since this last pregnancy, I have felt that I have one more child to go. I think that because of my whole thyroid issue, it is going to be difficult. But, I think that if we wait long enough and monitor my thyroid, I’ll get through one more and be done. It may be five more years. I am really glad my husband is so supportive. Like I said, he doesn’t want a crazy wife. 🙂
I have a friend who moved into the ward after her third was born. She was struggling with depression. I am ashamed to say this now, but in my mind I labeled her “the woman with depression”. That was almost 3 years ago. She used medication and has stabilized and now doesn’t need it anymore. I am getting to know the “real woman” behind the depression, and it makes me wonder how I come across to people. This whole experience has given me so much more compassion and understanding.
And, I admit that I said things in the worst possible way on here. At midnight after a bad day, everything in the world seems so bleak. After a good night of sleep, things look sunny again. 🙂
IUD and IUC are different, I apologize for not making a distinction. Mirena is an IUC and it doesn’t have to be inserted during a cycle, mine wasn’t.
Charity! Hi! I’ve missed you! How’s your sweet sis? I’ve missed her, too. I think your last paragraph emphasizes why the General Authorities say it’s between the couple and God. I think Heavenly Father EXPECTS us to use our smarts. You SHOULD decide when to have them; you know yourself better than anyone else, except for maybe Him.
UNDERSTAND! I am not advocating that everyone should have thirteen children! There are General Authorities who have three. There are General Authorities who have twelve. EVERY General Authority is incredibly busy, so it’s not like some had fewer children because their time was somehow more taken up.
But now I’m gonna say this carefully: so often we underestimate ourselves. We think we CAN’T do something, when really, we CAN. Especially if we believe that two people can do anything, if one of them is God. Should we avoid doing something because it would be HARD? Achingly, gut-wrenchingly, excruciatingly hard? Maybe not. He is known to ask people to do the hard thing occasionally. We need to be brutally honest with ourselves when we’re in the decision-making process. It IS possible to displease God without knowing that we are displeasing Him. Even when we have the right and the obligation to choose for ourselves, some choices may displease Him! and we may never know it, if we don’t approach Him carefully with humble hearts. Here’s a quote I wrote in my journal when I was struggling with the decision about the number of children to have. Granted, it was issued in 1969. The question we must ask ourselves is if the policy is really subject to change, or if it is an eternal truth that will not change. Since it involves the bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, I have my serious doubts about how much of it is going to change significantly from what’s been said in the past. When prophets today say, “It’s up to you,” might that not be a “not commanded in all things” statement, rather than an indication that the policy has changed? My experience has been that if we do not say to Him, “Thy will be done,” He sadly says to us, “Okay, child. THY will be done.” That does not mean we won’t be held accountable for what we choose!
Okay, the official statement, issued in 1969 by the First Presidency,David O. McKay, Hugh B. Brown, and N. Eldon Tanner: “We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any church members to curtail (cut short) the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity. Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by. However, we feel that men must be considerate of their wives who bear the greater responsibility not only of bearing children, but of caring for them through childhood. To this end the mother’s health and strength should be conserved and the husband’s consideration for his wife is his first duty, and self-control a dominant factor in all their relationships. It is our further feeling that married couples should seek inspiration and wisdom from the Lord that they may exercise discretion in solving their marital problems, and that they may be permitted to rear their children in accordance with the teachings of the gospel.”
I’ve read that statement so many times I could say it in my sleep.
I also wrote this in my journal, a statement given by Rodney Turner. He is not a General Authority, but the General Authorities trusted him to be a member of BYU’s religion faculty, to write manuals for MIA, Relief Society, and Sunday School, and he also wrote many articles for the New Era and Ensign–all subject to the scrutiny of the leaders of the Church before they were published.
He said, “Although the normal woman is theoretically capable of producing thirty or more (gulp)
children during her child-bearing years, nature and social custom combine to reduce the actual number she will have to considerably less than half that figure. Also, the average varies from class to class and culture to culture. Then too, women are not equally blessed with the physical endurance and emotional stability motherhood requires. Some have large families with the seeming ease of the accomplished artist (and I had written, NOT ME) while others apparently lack the skill and temperament to properly care for even two or three children. ONLY THE LORD CAN ACCURATELY MEASURE THE VARYING CAPACITIES OF MEN AND WOMEN; only He knows what we are REALLY capable of doing. SOMETIMES OUR “SUPPOSED” LIMITATIONS ARE DUE MORE TO THE ERADICABLE DROSS IN OUR CHARACTERS THAN TO ANY FUNCTIONAL DEFICIENCIES. In other words, the weakness is much more of the spirit than it is of the flesh.” (Eradicable dross means, in essence, removable waste. Dross is the junk that collects on top of the water after metal has been heated, purified, and thrust in cold water.)
IT’S STILL YOUR CHOICE. But it would be wise to choose with His goals and objectives in mind, lest we displease Him unawares. It means careful, soul-searching, humble prayer.
Tinkerbell, I just wanted to say that I also struggle with thyroid issues, and now being almost 5 years into my diagnosis, I feel that I finally have it under control. It does affect a lot of other systems, which is why I felt like a total nutcase half the time! This was wrong, that was wrong, I was tired, I was fat (getting fat, anyway), I was ornery. It has helped so much to get my levels right and to get on a medication that works for me. What I have found best for my thyroid is armour thyroid. A lot of doctors are reluctant to use it, but since I switched from synthroid to armour I feel a lot more in control. My sister and niece also use it.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I empathize and that there is light at the end of the tunnel! 🙂
BTW, last year my six year old (then 5) was also diagnosed hypothyroid! The only reason we tested her was because of the family history and because she has vitiligo which the doctor knew could be connected. We tested her and found that she indeed is hypo like her mom! She sees a fantastic doctor for it and has normal levels now (she is on synthroid).
I have to admit that when I read quotes like that, it makes me feel bad, particularly this part: women are not equally blessed with the physical endurance and emotional stability motherhood requires. Some have large families with the seeming ease of the accomplished artist while others apparently lack the skill and temperament to properly care for even two or three children.
IF I could get my emotional stability under control, I could have more kids. IF I had more physical endurance or emotional stability. IF I had more skills or a better temperament. (sigh) I know that is not the spirit to take it in. I understand and appreciate the quote. I am just tired. 🙁 I know that I have done all the Lord has required of me thus far, and my intent is to do all things He requires, so I really have no need to feel bad. But, I still do. 🙁 Maybe that is part of my trial on this earth: to accept my limitations.
What is armour thyroid? I haven’t heard of it.
They have a good website that explains it all really well, if you google “armour thyroid” it should be the first link – sorry, running short on time or I’d link it myself.
In a nutshell, it’s pork thyroid. It has been around for a long time (longer than synthetic versions). The main reason some doctors don’t like to prescribe it is because it is sometimes hard to guarantee the levels that you are getting – meaning that pigs can have different thyroid levels from each other so some batches may be a little stronger than others. I know, it sounds pretty disgusting but it actually matches human thyroid very closely and I just try to forget that it came from dried pig thyroid when I take it.
BTW, don’t smell it, it’s disgusting! I just hurry and throw the pill in and swallow. I feel a lot better since switching, but I have heard that it doesn’t work the same for everyone, so definitely talk to your doc. My endocrinologist really likes using it, but my daughter’s pediatric endo doesn’t (for kids, he does think it’s okay for adults).
Okay, I remember reading about that in my book. It said the same thing: it works well for some people, but because of the variations in the batches, it doesn’t work well for other people. I have been taking generic Synthroid ($4), but I am considering trying the name brand to see if it works any better. I see the doctor again in June. I am putting together a batch of info to talk to her about, so thanks for the info.
davidson, just wanted to clarify that you sharing the quotes didn’t make me feel bad. Just my own insecurities.
I finally had time to read through most of these comments and don’t have a lot of time to comment. I just want to say how much I love and admire my friends at MM! We each have our challenges and struggles that make us weary, but we also each have our faith and courage and desires to do the right things for the right reasons.
Thanks, Davidson, for sharing your story. I love your stories, your faith, your strength of character! Thanks, Tink, for sharing a piece of your heartache. I am a perfectionist as well, and can be very hard on myself. All of you who get frustrated with young kids (and this includes myself; my 5 yr old almost didn’t live to make it onto the bus for afternoon kindergarten today…), try to remember that as the kids get older, the challenges get easier in many respects. Different and tough, but the “trying to get them to eat/go to bed/clean up” stuff changes to an easier dynamic — in general. There are exceptions. But the challenges of young kids changes to a different dynamic with older kids. It’s tough – and lots of fun – to be a parent, but it’s really like a breath of fresh air to have different struggles and to leave some of the old ones behind! I guess I’m saying: Hang in there! Continue to endure well to the end! You’re all doing better than you think you are, at least based on the MM family relationships we’ve developed!
(((Cyber Hugs to all of you)))
I’m just now reading this….
Obviously things have changed throughout the years. We are then led to ask ourselves interesting questions: what exactly is doctrine ?? What is the difference in doctrine, council, and suggestions?
I actually attempted to address these questions, and posted what I have researched here, and here.
The purpose of those posts was to analyze past and present counsel, and let people decide for themselves if doctrine and counsel really is that different. My opinion is that the doctrine has essentially remained constant (as doctrine does) even as the specifics of counsel have changed some. My feeling is that things are not as drastically different as is often suggested, though. I just think more is being left to us to decide how to implement the counsel. And leaders have expressed concern about the fact that we are following worldly trends in terms of marriage and family, so that is instructive in its own right, imo.
I think the whole entry on BC is important to look at, not just the ‘it’s a personal decision part.’ What prepares us to be ready to make this decision? It’s a true understanding of the doctrine, which really is simply summarized in this little entry.
There is no guarantee that once someone becomes president of the Church that he is will be immune from making inaccurate, unscientific, or even undoctrinal statements.
I’ve never been a fan of this kind of thinking (Why? Because it’s often paired with someone trying to dismiss prophetic counsel or justify countering it). That said, I’m not sure that was your intent. And I’m not sure you would disagree, but I think that with something this personal, we should be very, very careful about generalizing our personal choices. Past leaders never suggested having children at all costs; for example, there has consistently been an exception for the mother’s health — which means that there has consistently been space for some element of birth control and wisdom and order. I think it’s important to ask why the counsel has been given, what the spirit of the counsel has always been, why birth control was spoken against so clearly, etc. Was it about methods, or about motives? I tend to think it was more of the latter. And I still think our leaders teach us about this as well.
So back to my thoughts about generalizing things. If someone chooses, say permanent bc, they certainly have that right, but then IMO, I don’t think that they can then look at past counsel and go so far as to proclaim that the prophets must have been uninspired in their counsel against it. We shouldn’t try to manipulate counsel to suit our decisions. We need to make decisions and own them, but not assume that then prophets have somehow made a mistake because we came to a different conclusion. We don’t have that right or stewardship to make such assertions.
As I have studied this topic (and I have studied it extensively), my opinion is that often people are quick to assume that now that we don’t get specific comments about birth control that somehow things are so drastically different and we can do whatever we want to do without any problem at all (I’m hyperbolizing a bit, I know, but trying to make a point). I can’t help but think that past counsel may be more salient than we think, and wonder if someday, when we have the eternal picture, we might realize that birth control wasn’t always all it was cracked up to be. It can be a wonderful blessing to have the power of choice as we do, but it’s also a sobering responsibility, and frankly, I think a bit of fear is not necessarily a bad thing–just enough that it really drives us to our knees to seek God’s will in this eternally important facet of life. The doctrine itself — as it is preached today — is clear: these decisions are of eternal import, and that, to me, puts a little bit of the fear of God in me. If there is anything I don’t want to goof on, it’s this kind of decision.
But you’ve just studied quotes from general authorities, not the counsel given in bishops office and the discussions among moms at the playground. I got married in 1978, and I’ve seen drastic changes, mostly for the better, in the latter two categories.
It used to be assumed that the default was always to have more children, that you couldn’t go wrong making that choice. Nowadays, I think many choices are seen as equally valid. For some of us, that realization came about from watching other people’s marriages shatter under the stress of too many children too quickly, etc.
The hyperbole does not make any point. It is dismissive of the very hard choices that many of us make, through prayer and fasting an petitioning the Lord. Because of my age, I know lots of couples who have decided not to have more children. NONE of them felt they were doing whatever they wanted to do.
I don’t wonder that for a minute. I feel birth control is a great blessing, and Margaret Sanger’s birthday should be a national holiday. I trust in the inspiration I received to stop at five. It has been over 10 years, and I have never regretted or second-guessed for a minute. I am absolutely certain that our family circle was complete, and the Lord had other things he wanted us to do. It was not coincidental that when the youngest child was potty trained, my husband was called into the bishopric, and ever since one of us has had a 3-night-a-week calling (bishop, RS president, high councilor, etc.). We could not have served as effectively if we were still childbearing, I’m sure the Lord knew that and needed us in those positions. Plus many other things in our lives in which we were in a position to serve (when my parents died, first grandbaby was diagnosed with leukemia, etc.).
And please don’t dismiss my experience as an “exception”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, raising a righteous posterity is important. But so are other things. I think we are just as condemned if we continue to have children because we want to, when the Lord would have us to be doing other things at that point in time.
So, Naismith and mlinford agree in the end – that each of us needs to make our own decision based on inspiration from the Lord. Cool.
Naismith, I in no way addressed your decision specifically. I was speaking in generalities. If all was hunky-dory all across the board, church leaders wouldn’t be talking about the concerns they have about falling birth rates, etc. I’m sure your decision was right for you.
And I know from personal experience that the answer isn’t always to have more. I’m not seeking to be dismissive or ignoring how hard these decisions are, because I have experienced that difficulty, and our answer has not been to have more children. And it breaks my heart almost every day. But we feel it’s right. (I keep thinking…at least for now…but time is a ticking….)
Everyone: if you haven’t taken the time to read Mlinford’s blog referenced above, please find a quiet hour and do it. It will be one of the most worthwhile hours you’ve ever spent as a mother.
It discusses a very vital subject, one that isn’t openly discussed in Sacrament meetings, but it is at the heart of the gospel. She has taken the time to research it carefully. Not only do we need to make decisions about this important topic, the Lord expects us to make educated decisions, and the very best education you can receive is from a prophet of God. She quotes several. It will bless your life and give you some much-needed direction before you ever hit your knees to pray about it. If you are wise, you will share it with your husband. (Sorry, Ray.)
Mlinford, thank you so much for taking the time to do that. I was very impressed.
It’s OK, davidson. I would share it with my husband if I had one. Then again, if I had one, I probably wouldn’t know about m’s blog or this one. 😉
e might realize that birth control wasn’t always all it was cracked up to be.
I also want to reiterate that I was not condemning birth control by that statement. I just think it’s a mixed bag, and to me is a big responsibility to use it wisely and with God’s guidance. Not saying that anyone here doesn’t feel that way. But hey, isn’t it ok to say things even if others agree? 🙂
And I am not trying to suggest that anyone here hasn’t made their decisions carefully and prayerfully. Again, I’m just talking in generalities. So please don’t accuse me of attacking your choice, because I’m not. I do think it’s good to be able to talk about these things in generalities, because it’s the generalities that imo can help us sort through the decisions we need to make. “True doctrine understood changes behavior” and all of that.
So you seem to “generally” think that couples are saying “we can do whatever we want to do without any problem at all”? I disagree with that assertion. It was way over the line.
And what have they said recently about “falling birth rates”? I see that you did not include SIster Tanner’s quote on this subject from the recent worldwide leadership: “I think it requires us to be in tune with the Lord to receive personal revelation, and I think it requires a pure heart so that we are not judgmental of other people who are exercising their faith and having their own personal revelation in regard to that commandment.”
That’s what I find lacking when couples are characterized as “doing whatever they want to.”
In that same meeting, Elder Oaks went on to say, “Instead of making those decisions in faith on the Lord ?s promises and in reliance upon what we know of the great plan of happiness and the purpose of life, they look to other sources television or prominent ideological gurus in the world today or even the pressure of their neighbors to make decisions that are fundamental and eternal and need to be made prayerfully before the Lord.”
But it is just as much a problem if the neighbors are LDS neighbors, and the pressure is to have more because of “Mormon culture”! The real issue is that we need to make those decisions “prayerfully before the Lord.”
I realize that Elder Nelson did touch on “falling birth rates” in general conference last year, but the context was not that issue specifically, but rather a host of social issues. And his real point was about worldiness. If they really had a concern about “falling birth rates” specifically, I am confident we would hear about it in General RS meeting.
Thinking about what I wrote last night, I wondered if it is not coincidental that statements about birth control dwindled at the same time the church was expanding around the globe? I am sure it is not easy being a bishop anywhere, and they must petition the Lord for guidance, but when I lived in Utah, our ward was 4 blocks square and there was a bishop’s storehouse in town. Out here, we get people from an hour away, and the storehouse is two hours away. This adds to the time necessary to be a good shepherd. I wonder if the church understands this. If really the point is to do what the Lord would have it do, perhaps it doesn’t matter whether we have another child, or serve unselfishly in a calling where the Lord needs us?
How can you know that? You aren’t entitled to revelation for me. You can’t know it was right any more than you know that “generally” couples who don’t have more are thinking “we can do whatever we want to do without any problem at all.”
I’m not sure why you take issue with this. The comment was not offensive and does not in any way indicate that she thinks she receives revelation for you. She was assuming the best of you. Perhaps you could do the same for her.
That’s what I find lacking when couples are characterized as “doing whatever they want to.”
Fair enough. I understand this part. Sorry that I crossed a line there.
I just wish you could give ME some benefit of the doubt too along the way. But I’m sorry I offended you.
If really the point is to do what the Lord would have it do, perhaps it doesn’t matter whether we have another child, or serve unselfishly in a calling where the Lord needs us?
I disagree with this logic, however. The Lord has a different plan for each of us, and I know from personal experience that answers can and will come, taking our personal situations into account. But I think that the assertion you have made is unsustainable and unsupported by the counsel we have received. Having children and serving unselfishly in callings are in no way mutually exclusive.
If they really had a concern about “falling birth rates” specifically, I am confident we would hear about it in General RS meeting.
I have heard this talked about more than once. Concerns don’t have to all be in General Conference to be valid or real.
Hi ,
This message is for the lady with user name of Davidson. I just read the story about how your husband had a vasectomy reversal and you went on to have more kids together. It was very touching and inspirational. I am going thorough something very similar right now. I would love to talk to you about the whole experience. My husband and I are trying to be very prayerful about this decision and I would really appreciate your insight. Please feel free to contact me at 703 439-0010. Thank you.
Marcy
Hi Kerby! Welcome, welcome!
Just in case you weren’t aware– this site let’s you “whisper” your comments, that way, your phone number won’t be “out there” for just anyone to call you. (if you’re worried about that)
If you click on “edit” in the top right corner of your comments, you’ll see that above the white box where you first typed your post, there’s a box that says, “whisper your comments to”— you can type “davidson” in that box and ONLY davidson will get your message.
Glad to have you around!!
Yes, a big welcome to you, Marcy. Hope to hear more from you!
Alright so i have a question. What is the church’s stand on IUD’s? We are definatly against abortion and IUD’s pretty much do the same thing. I am thinking of getting one but don’t know if I feel comortable. IUD’s are a form of “after abortion”. If you get one with in the week of intercourse and you have become pregnant it will cause you to miscarry the baby. Also, if one of your eggs gets fertilized while the IUD is in what the IUD does is thins the lining of your uterus so when the egg attaches to the wall their isn’t enough nutrients for it to survive. So technically isn’t that like an abortion. I really don’t want to have to take the pill, and condoms are a pain, and I can not have another child right now. I can’t afford it, don’t have the room, and now is not the time. But I don’t know if IUD is the right answer either. Does anyone have an opinion???
I am starting to feel the same way about IUD’s but its some peoples only option. I’m in great debate about BC and my newest will be 6 weeks on Saturday.
The Copper-T IUD pretty much tells your body its already preggo because its implanted, but also thins the lining and the fertilized egg can’t implant. You still ovulate. The copper-t tend to make your period worse, just so you know.
The newer Mirena IUD also contains hormones and therefore in a majority of women actually stops ovulation just like the pill but you don’t have to worry about taking it daily. Plus on the rare case that you do ovulate then it also thins the lining and the egg can’t implant.
I think birth control is a VERY personal decision. I’m not opposed to talking about it, but tis definately something the church hasn’t spoken out on for a good reason…so far.
I know I’m not using an IUD anytime soon. Just sayin’. :devil:
Doesn’t any form of bc, other than a condom, have the possibility of aborting a pregnancy if continued after fertilization?
Most, I would think, use forms of bc before or during relations, so it isn’t an issue. I loved having the mirena, and wish our new insurance covered it, I would do it again in a heartbeat. For me, it was a huge load off my mind that we weren’t going to have any oops babies.
Welcome, Stakerbriz! I empathize with the struggle you’re going through just now. A thought to consider: many eggs are fertilized in the womb and don’t attach to the uterine wall for one reason or another. That’s a natural thing that happens, even without the IUD.
I remember an LDS gynecologist, quoted in the Ensign in “I Have a Question”, who said that if you have decided to postpone having a baby and have cleared it with the Lord, the METHOD of birth control used makes little difference. Even abstinence is a form of birth control. I think there are some special considerations to be taken before permanent sterilization is decided upon, but I have always remembered that statement. It gave me some much-needed direction.
Welcome to MM Stakerbriz!
If I were you, I’d look it up in the handbook first. I honestly can’t remember what it says about birth control, but I know it DOES address it to some extent. If I remember correctly it just says something along the lines of “decide prayerfully” and “consider the wife most of all because she has the primary responsibilities with childbirth and care.”
Personally, I did not ever consider using an IUD for the very reasons you mentioned.
it was a huge load off my mind that we weren’t going to have any oops babies.
FWIW, I have a friend who got pregnant with one of these inserted forms of BC. Nothing is foolproof. Just sayin.’ 🙂
I remember an LDS gynecologist, quoted in the Ensign in “I Have a Question”, who said that if you have decided to postpone having a baby and have cleared it with the Lord, the METHOD of birth control used makes little difference.
This article was good, but I think it’s also important to remember that these question responses are not doctrine, just opinion.
I think the issue of BC gives couples the chance to really seek guidance. There is no One Right Answer, and I think the process of getting the answer is really important.
For some food for thought, here’s the index entry on the Church’s website. And the entry in True to the Faith.
To me, the awesome (but also difficult) element of these things is that they teach the doctrine but don’t really address specifics. That’s our job, our opportunity. 🙂
For me though, it stopped my period, so the possibility of being fertilized was incredibley slim, since the cycle wasn’t flowing, my body “thought” it was prego 🙂
“There is no One Right Answer, and I think the process of getting the answer is really important.”
May I respectfully explore an idea?
To my way of thinking, there is “One Right Answer.” It is the Answer God has for YOU. It may be different than the answer He has for someone else, but I agree with the hymn: “There’s a right and a wrong to every question; let God and Heaven be your goal.” There is One Right Answer. Even if the answer is “There are several options that would be acceptable to Me,” that is still the “One Right Answer.” It is not an answer you can INVENT; it is only an answer you can RECEIVE, and only after seeking, as you mentioned above. The process of getting the answer is really important. After all the processing, the answer is invalid if it doesn’t include God’s seal of approval. A statement like “There is no One Right Answer” may create a faulty idea in some people’s minds. If they readily agree that “there is no One Right Answer,” they might also erroneously conclude that any answer they can conceive and believe is acceptable to a loving God, and the rationalization begins. It might beget the Exception Mentality–“well, it’s different for me.” A variation on that theme might be, “Well, if it’s okay for ________________, it must be okay for me, too, because God wouldn’t tell me no and her yes.” Of course He would, with good reason. As the Savior told Peter when he questioned the apostle John’s role in comparison to his own, “What is that to thee? Follow thou me.” We are different people with different premortal assignments. And in so many ways, the we are different people who are all the same.
When I am tempted to believe that I am the exception to God’s requirements, I generally ask myself three questions: (1) Has God required it of others, even when it was difficult? (2) Would He require it of me, even if it would be difficult?, and (3) Does He require it of me now?
davidson, I think you’re both saying the same thing. I believe the point of “There is no One Right Answer” was that the One Right Answer might not be the same for all of us. We may not all get the same answer to this question. There isn’t one answer that applies to the church at large. The process of getting the answer (the praying and the listening) is the point of having issues like this–to help us learn to get the answer the Lord has for us, specifically.
Good comments about “There is no one Right answer.” Everyone is different. No answer coming from the General Handbook is going to answer the same question for everyone. We must rely on ourselves, with our hands in Heavenly Father’s about these answers. I just know that for me at the time it was an inspiration moment and not what Heavenly Father had in store for anyone else but me. Now that I have had 26 years to look back and see the wisdom of his counsel, it was personal and it was right for me!!! At the time I did not want to give up having kids at the age of 26. But it had to be done to save my life and it did. I was told I needed to be around to raise the two I have been given.Looking at the blessings that have come since then are wonderful. I have 6, almost 7 grandchildren and have had hand in raising them as my own. I have been rewarded for being obediant. The blessing out weigh the heartache!!
I like what’s been said and clarified, but want to add that I DO think the handbook gives lots of answers about policy and doctrine. And, as far as they DO go, they are the “One Right Answer” a great deal of the time. That’s why I suggested looking at the handbook. It’s NOT terribly explicit, but it does give you a starting point.
Certainly the handbook and prayers go hand in hand. And they are guides for us to use. Sometimes I wonder if we rely too much on the written word and not go to the Lord for inspiration. The Lord wants us to seek him out. I do respect that the Handbook is a guide to use and you are right Alison, it is a starting point.
I guess I’m of the opinion that there are many, many things where there is NO written word and we have to completely rely on inspiration/discernment. In those areas where God has gone to the trouble to GIVE us written word, it’s there for us to follow.
To me it’s like the Sabbath thing. There are lots of things open to interpretation, but a few are spelled out. So, I try to follow those that are specified and use discernment for the others. Generally, I don’t go back to ground zero and do all the work myself.
In fact, a few decades ago, I tried to do that on a particular issues. And, finally, I got an answer. It was something like, “Well, you already know what I said about that. Why are you asking me for personal counsel on the issue?” That was one of first times I realized that, unique as I was, general counsel applied to me just about 100% of the time. So, I start at general counsel and work from there.
Wise.
we also have to remember that the handbook isn’t available to the eyes of all members.
Well, it IS, but you have to ask to see it. Someday someone will explain that to me. I think every member should have one to access. Fascinating reading. If you want to know something and don’t have access, just ask.
FWIW, most of it’s on the web, too, but only by those who have violated copyright laws to put it there.
Alison,
I agree with you about starting with what HAS been given. It’s silly to try to reinvent the wheel or receive information that is already there for us. But, since the handbook isn’t available for general reading, I do think that the links I provided provide a good starting point, and one that is likely pretty close to the handbook’s info, except for maybe the concept of protecting the wife’s health, but that has been said elsewhere, I believe. Another place to study would be in the Church magazines and the worldwide leadership broadcast. They talked about the general principles of having children, etc. in the latest broadcast.
davidson, we were basically saying the same thing. 🙂
I agree, Michelle.
Hee hee. No one is more aware than I am that Michelle and I were saying the same thing–at least, in the agreement that there is NO One Right Answer, (in the general sense that general counsel can’t be applied specifically to everyone without variation)–or in the specific sense that there IS One Right Answer, (custom-made counsel for you that comes only from the Lord and can’t be self-generated.) Two different routes that arrive at the same destination. My concern is the WAY in which a phrase like that can be misunderstood and misapplied. If we tell ourselves repeatedly that “there is no One Right Answer,” there is danger that we will eventually come to believe that EVERY commandment and bit of counsel is open to private interpretation, that the commandments can be tweaked to suit our preferences, that our opinions are as valid as God’s opinions and He will understand if we decide to do our own customizing–which just isn’t so. If there weren’t a need to simply follow general counsel, there would have been no Sinai. There would be no General Conferences of the Church. There would be no Church handbook of instructions. If there are exceptions, they are usually clearly identified for us. “There is no One Right Answer” does little to highlight the principle of sacrifice and how we each must find our way to exacting obedience, sometimes at great cost. I think the misunderstanding and misapplication of that phrase puts one in danger of eventual disappointment, at that point when we finally see through the glass clearly instead of darkly. It puts one in danger of aching regret. We heard a “wowerful” scripture in church yesterday that applies here. It comes in a section of the Doctrine and Covenants which discusses the three degrees of glory, then mentions those who will not inherit a kingdom of glory. It says of them: “Then they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, TO ENJOY THAT WHICH THEY ARE WILLING TO RECEIVE, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT WILLING TO ENJOY THAT WHICH THEY MIGHT HAVE RECEIVED.” (D & C 88:32) I think we obey the commandments, not looking for loopholes, in order that we might avoid terminal regret. Well, that’s a lower reason. We obey commandments exactly, first and foremost, because we love our God and want to honor Him. I can’t help but think He wouldn’t be pleased with the quibbling, the same way we are less than thrilled when our children whine and complain and argue about the things we as parents ask them to do for their own good. Loophole-seeking lies squarely in the center of the murmuring category.
We need to tell ourselves that for most general counsel, the exceptions are RARE. I like what Alison said: “In fact, a few decades ago, I tried to do that on a particular issues. And, finally, I got an answer. It was something like, “Well, you already know what I said about that. Why are you asking me for personal counsel on the issue?” That was one of first times I realized that, unique as I was, general counsel applied to me just about 100% of the time. So, I start at general counsel and work from there.”
:cheer:
Satan can be so clever and deceiving. He is particularly useful in this area of assisting our self-deception over whether or not we are the exception to general counsel. And those who TRULY ARE the exception to general counsel usually know they are by unmistakeable revelation. We always have to consider the source of revelation, and our worthiness to receive valid revelation.
Jesus, the only one who could have rightfully considered Himself an exception, never did. I think that is instructive.
We need to tell ourselves that for most general counsel, the exceptions are RARE.
I have a theory that those who are exceptions don’t WANT to be.
Yes – but let’s not forget that this discussion was specifically about birth control – – an issue where the GENERAL counsel is “it’s between the husband and the wife and the Lord.”
If you want to know something and don’t have access, just ask.
It depends on the leader! I have done this and was not allowed to see it.
jennycherie, the counsel is actually a bit broader than that. The commandment is to multiply and replenish. The counsel is basically as follows:
When married couples are physically able, they have the privilege of providing mortal bodies for Heavenly Father ?s spirit children. They play a part in the great plan of happiness, which permits God ?s children to receive physical bodies and experience mortality.
If you are married, you and your spouse should discuss your sacred responsibility to bring children into the world and nurture them in righteousness. As you do so, consider the sanctity and meaning of life. Ponder the joy that comes when children are in the home. Consider the eternal blessings that come from having a good posterity. With a testimony of these principles, you and your spouse will be prepared to prayerfully decide how many children to have and when to have them. Such decisions are between the two of you and the Lord.
and
Husband and wife are encouraged to pray and counsel together as they plan their families. Issues to consider include the physical and mental health of the mother and father and their capacity to provide the basic necessities of life for their children.
Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple.
In the case of an exception in my comment above, for example, the exception in mind that would be rare would not be relative to the use of bc per se, but relative to the commandment to muliply and replenish itself — to decide not to multiply and replenish for some reason, or to greatly limit that opportunity. I think may be addressing davidson is that sometimes people will use the ‘well, it’s between me and God’ idea to justify selfish choices, not actually ones that God has sanctioned.
That said, in the end, even if that is the case, everyone has the agency and opportunity to make choices on issues such as this. As is mentioned in the quote above, we also will each face the responsibility and accountability for our choices.
I take comfort as one who has felt a NO about having more children for the past five years (health issues took us to God to figure out what was right for us), that God knows my heart. I think that is the bottom line. As we work through all of this, He knows our hearts. He knows what we really want and desire (for good or for ill), and He can help us figure things out.
But I can’t tell you how hard it is to perpetually get that answer when we have both wanted more children, and when my clock is a’tickin’. It’s also not easy because I don’t (and ended up having it be a ‘can’t’) use chemical bc.
One last thing – I just want to assume that when someone is asking about methods of bc that they have already felt that using it is ok. So please don’t misunderstand my last post as anything other than talking about the issue of birth control a little more broadly, because in general, it does involve more than just method choices, and I think it’s important to see the counsel as more of a whole, not just the part of ‘it’s between you and your spouse and God.’ I think the doctrine (both about multiplying and replenishing and the blessings of posterity and such and also about agency and accountability) is important to remember, too.
Back to the original question, I have chosen not to use chemical bc because I have side effects I don’t like (I don’t like my cycle being changed, and the last time I tried it for other reasons (not for bc reasons), my insomnia got worse), but also because I am not personally comfortable with the potential for the chemicals to potentially expel a fertilized egg.
But I know plenty of righteous, good, people who choose otherwise. Again, this ends up being something that must be a personal choice, one that we each can feel we can make with God’s help and guidance.
Oooo, what did you want to know? Inquiring minds…
Hey, I can’t account for secretive leaders anymore than I can for those who make up things only men are allowed to do. 🙂
When hubby was in the bishopric, we would spend our Sundays with him reading and quizzing me about stuff to see how much I knew. I loved it.
I sometimes wish it was more available, but just imagine what that might look like. “Bishop, the handbook says this but you are doing it like this….” While it’s a good guide, it isn’t all spelled out, and there is plenty of room for interpretation and inspiration, and members ain’t gonna get that for the bishop or other leaders. I think it probably is wise that they don’t distribute it all freely.
I like it!
hehe
So all these talks about bc have my mind freaking out… seriously, random, I know, but I am late, which isn’t out of the norm for me, but still, freaking out at the possibility. :shocked::shocked::shocked:
Kristin Chenoweth…nope, not about vasectomy…but still – we should start a separate thread just about her! I love her! I really wish I could have seen her in Wicked, but by the time I saw it, it was someone else. Still good, but not Kristin! I was surprised how many Wicked clips there were on YouTube. It was fun to relive that. I think “For Good” is one of the best friendship songs ever.
That Glitter and Be Gay clip was amazing too.
LEWIS! Keep us posted, girl. 🙂
Would you be happy or sad, Lewis? Both? Hugs.
Ha, I would be happy and nervous? Not sad, never sad, but the exhaustion factor would mix in a second emotion with happy, if that makes sense? The test said no, so hopefully it was correct, I was stressing so bad hubby went out and bought one 🙂
Sure yanks you around emotionally, doesn’t it? “Exhausted and happy” sounds like the normal state for most mommas.
I went through a similar thing recently, just ask delmar how freaked out we were at her house when we sent my hubbie out for a test! (turns out that my gall bladder is just faulty! though I would love to have more babies, my little one will be a year old next month, and she is already walking!)
Walking! Hurray! I can’t believe it’s been that long.
I know, wierd huh?
OK, I’m going to be really frank. I can see that after a C-section, this might be relatively inconsequential, but otherwise I think it’s more a case of the guy running from having sharp objects near his privates. Sure, let the wife get her body MORE messed with. Fine with me. Just don’t touch me with those scissors.
Oh, and she can also get implanted stuff and take hormone pills and all that other pregnancy-prevention stuff, too, while we’re at it. Just don’t mess with my parts!
BTW, what if the MAN dies and you and hubby #2 decide to re-replenish the earth? If you’re too old to have kids with wife #1, maybe you’re too old to have kids PERIOD. :tongue:
OK. I’m cool. Just thank you to my dear Sam. He considers himself an equal partner in having AND in not having kids. I’m going to get some chocolate…then I’ll make out with my man.
Permanent Methods of Sterilization
Tubal Ligation vs. Vasectomy
I like it!
OK, so I’ll be quoting Kristin Chenoweth this week if I can manage it.
Oh, you wanna see something amazing that has even less to do with vasectomy? Check out Glitter and Be Gay. (No, not THAT gay.) I sang this in college. It’s a killer with over a four-octave range, but I had no idea it could be this good–and this funny. Never seen anyone do it so well as Chenoweth. She’s my musical idol.
I don’t know if anyone will see this as this post is clearly from years ago. I am in the middle of searching for what I believe to be the truth when it comes to all forms of birth control and the church and happened to stumble on this post. It always makes me wonder when religious ( of any denomination) use birth control such as the pill and iud? They don’t always stop conception, but they do cause the fertilized embryo to not implant in the uterus, therefore causing an abortion. Why doesn’t the church take a stance against this and let woman know! I’m not trying to pass judgement, I would just like to know some opinions on the topic. Also, from the 2012 October Conference, Dallian H Oaks stated that ONE of the worse abuses to children is denying them birth. Again, just looking for some opinions of the situation as it is something I am in the thick of.