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I have a theory. My theory is that Republicans are really only fiscally conservative until they start to see a personal benefit in being fiscally liberal. “Small government! Lower taxes!” they scream. Oh, until big government and higher taxes will personally line their pockets.
What hypocrisy.
I'm proud to say that even when we were dirt poor, struggling college students living well below the poverty level we still supported the same fundamental policies and principles (and small government and low taxes and few entitlements) we believe in today. It's not about me. It's about what is right.
Last year, during all the voucher hubbub in Utah, I was thoroughly disappointed in the vote count from the “reddest state in the nation.” The NEA got their way using scare tactics to keep them in power.
The great disappointment, however, wasn't because vouchers were defeated, but because of why they were defeated. Forget about what's right or fair or best for the kids. I think the vote was all about “what's in it for me.”
The NEA made everyone believe that the voucher bill which would have actually increased school spending would irrevocably damage the schools. They would be harmed to the point of not functioning. And that, my friend, would leave parents in the unthinkable position of having to be in charge of educating their children.
School dependency is no different from welfare dependency.
We have schools that educate our children (albeit often marginally), provide athletic and arts extracurricular activities for them, give them a social outlet, provide parties and clubs. Add to that the provided transportation almost from door-to-door, subsidized meals, before- and after-school care. It is an almost “free” government-sponsored nanny from ages 5-18 (and longer if you add Head Start and other pre-K programs). Almost nothing is required from parents!
Charter schools are somewhat popular, but not nearly as popular unless they contract for busses and school lunch and stop requiring so much “parental involvement.” Heaven forbid we actually ask parents to get their children to school and feed them. What a burden!
Given all that we've grown accustomed to, asking LDS parents to stop depending upon the government to educate (and, to a great extent, raise) their children is a tall order. Using the government schools is, after all, the norm. Still, I'd like you to consider what you relinquish when you refuse to give up the convenience of public school and take back the full responsibility of educating your children, either in a private school, co-op, or homeschool.
Today, it is not just a matter of quality of education. While I'd contend that a superior academic situation might well be enough to sway many responsible parents (it was for me) and a more consistent social situation can be a huge benefit, there are other probably more important considerations at work now.
This morning one of our writers, Kristen Chevrier, posted a link to an important video. It tells the story of a father who was arrested in Massachusetts a state with legalized gay marriage because he demanded notification if/when the school planned to teach his five-year-old son anything about homosexuality and/or gay marriage.
Of course, this isn't the first incident of the moral decline in public schools. It's been eroding regularly for decades now. But when is enough, enough? When will we draw the line? How much are LDS parents willing to allow in the name of the convenience of “free” government education?
Why do any LDS (or any Christian for that matter) parents in Massachusetts have their kids in pubic schools?
I say vote with your dollars. Pull your kids out.
Alison Moore Smith is a 61-year-old entrepreneur who graduated from BYU in 1987. She has been (very happily) married to Samuel M. Smith for 40 years. They are parents of six incredible children and grandparents to two astounding grandsons. She is the author of The 7 Success Habits of Homeschoolers.
“Why do any LDS (or any Christian for that matter) parents in Massachusetts have their kids in pubic schools?”
Perhaps they believe in being part of the solution and CHANGING what is wrong rather than leaving. Are we going to let crazy people take over everything or are we going to get involved and make it better?
Quote: “School dependency is no different from welfare dependency.. . .Almost nothing is required from parents!”
And yet, many parents choose to participate and be involved in their children’s schools anyway. And, strangely enough, the administrator’s and teachers frequently ask for input on what they can do to encourage parent involvement.
Quote: “Using the government schools is, after all, the norm. Still, I ?d like you to consider what you relinquish when you refuse to give up the convenience of public school and take back the full responsibility of educating your children, either in a private school, co-op, or homeschool.”
Alison, believe it or not, many people use public schools for reasons other than convenience. Your assertion that convenience is the only reason is as obnoxious as if I were to say that the only reason people homeschool is because they are ruled by their fears.
Quote: “This morning one of our writers, Kristen Chevrier, posted a link to an important video. It tells the story of a father who was arrested in Massachusetts a state with legalized gay marriage because he demanded notification if/when the school planned to teach his five-year-old son anything about homosexuality and/or gay marriage.”
This video IS horrifying and is good reason to act– but that does not mean the best action is to pull the kids out of public school. I think it’s important to know that the school did not just automatically call the police and have them slap on the cuffs. The father said that he wanted to push the issue and see how far the school would go. He refused to leave. He felt it was important to take a stand (good for him!) and so he refused to leave. *THAT* is why he was arrested. He wasn’t arrested because he asked for notification, he was arrested because he refused to leave.
Quote: “But when is enough, enough? When will we draw the line? How much are LDS parents willing to allow in the name of the convenience of free ? government education?”
Again, public education is not about convenience, although for many it is convenient. No matter HOW one chooses to educate one’s children, it is important to KNOW what is happening in the school, to KNOW the people at the school (teachers, students, administrators, janitors, lunch aides, and more) and to DO something when there is a problem. I see so many parents who have pulled their kids out of school every time there is a problem. The result? They are running out of options! One of my friends has had her children in four different schools already — and both of her children are still in elementary! We have to start sticking around and working for solutions instead of running away.
I haven’t had time to watch the video or read your article, Alison. I just pulled this up and read the comments quickly before I need to help one of my kids. Based on what is here (granted, not enough for a well-balanced opinion) I tend to agree with Jenny. No matter what situation we are in or how we choose to educate our kids, we all need to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
full disclosure. jenny don’t you work for the public schools?
I think there are definitely problems with the public school program. But I think this post takes it all too far to the extreme. This post seems to want to tie good LDSness to pulling kids out of school and I have never, never liked that kind of position. I think it’s wrong. I totally respect those who choose to homeschool, but I think it’s wrong to suggest that it’s the One Right Way.
I also think there are many ways to make good choices. One of them could be homeschooling. But staying in the system can also be a valid and important job. We can’t have an impact on the system if we are all out of the system.
And I don’t care what our early leaders said about this — If it really was that important for us all to pull out, I think we’d be told as much.
As a note, I myself have actually thought about homeschooling, and it has not felt like the right thing to do. So what more can I really say?
I didn’t.
I’m not going to respond much this afternoon, so feel free to share your thoughts either way. But I do want to respond to this. The ellipsis is misleading. These two statements weren’t even in the same paragraph. My point is not that school and welfare are analogous because so little is required from parents, although that is true to a great extent.
That said, I wasn’t clear about what I DID mean and what I think the similarities are. So, here goes:
When people get accustomed to having the government provide certain things (like basic food and housing), to a great extent they lose the ABILITY to provide for themselves. They don’t know how to do it and have no MODEL for how to do it, so they do what their parents did, continue dependence on the government to provide. In fact, very often they can’t even see independence as an alternative. It’s not even on the radar to them. And we end up with multiple generations who see food and shelter as an entitlement and a right, to be provided by the government.
Similarly, most Americans do not consider “alternative” forms of education to be a seriously viable alternatives. They went to public schools, they only really know about public schools, and they have always assumed their own children would attend public schools–barring some catastrophic event. They consider government schools to be the preferred schools and staying in them in order to “make them better” something akin to basic patriotism. (I know, I used to think the same thing myself.)
I do wonder why we don’t all go on welfare. You know, in order to be “part of the solution” instead of “running away from the problem.”
Because I homeschool, you might assume I am promoting homeschooling, but I’m not. In the article I specifically listed at least three non-government forms: private, co-op, and homeschools.
Hope that at least clarifies my position.
i am _not_ a homeschooler. ive told you all that before. but i think its almost impossible to change the schools and the trend is going more against our church teachings every year. im in a very liberal state. tell me something you changed.
***I haven’t had time to watch the video or read your article, …Based on what is here (granted, not enough for a well-balanced opinion) I tend to agree with Jenny.***
i dont know what you agree with and it doesnt look like you do either.
To clarify, what I really believe is that as the trend in schools is to become more and more perverted and contrary to God’s word, the public schools, more and more, become the One Wrong Way.
oregonian, I think jenny actually teaches at the college level
Every time I spend an extended amount of time in my children’s schools – whether volunteering or substitute teaching – I want to run right out and pull my kids out of school. But I will admit I feel limited in my options. For me, it is not at all about turning my kids over to the schools for them to raise – I’m a very involved parent who spends a lot of time in the schools and working with my children at home. Homeschooling is something that has appealed to me on many levels in the past, and yet every time I’ve seriously considered it, either something logistically did not fit into place or I did not feel like it was the right choice for our family at the time for one reason or another. I would love to have the funds to send my children to private school but right now that is just not reality. For the time being, my solution is to be as involved as I can in the schools. I see some great things happening there…and also some scary things. Honestly, when I sub it’s not what they are or are not being taught that is of concern, it is the amount of time that is wasted getting all the kiddos lined up, or correcting little Johnny who is bouncing off the walls, or taking 5 extra minutes with a child who is struggling. Having children who have been usually at the top of the class, that type of waste has frustrated me. However, I do realize that it is impossible to meet the needs of every single child in the classroom 100% of the time. Most of my children’s teachers have done the best they can (we’ve only had one truly bad teacher in the 9 my children have had) and I appreciate their efforts greatly. But there are a lot of things at the district, state, and national levels that really frustrate me.
Homeschooling is still an option for us, it’s just been hard to make everything match up since finances are super tight and I’m needing to work and would like to go back to school myself.
Anyway, I think it’s important to do the best we can with the situation we have. I recognize that it’s a valid option to homeschool, or private school, or co-op – but while my kids are still in public school (and they probably will be at least for the near future) we’re just making the best of it that we can.
BTW Oregonion – I served my mission in Oregon and they had some of the best homeschooling co-ops I’ve ever seen. It was there where the thought really entered my mind that I might want to try it someday. I’m assuming there is still a lot of that going on (it’s been almost 15 years since I served there, but wow, some of those homeschoolers were so on the ball!)
Oregonian, will you please stop with the insults? Michelle spelled out carefully exactly what she meant. She had a very short time to make a comment, so she agreed with Jenny that we need to be part of the solution – and jenny spelled out what she meant very well. Please consider thinking through a response before you launch a sweeping broadside insult that simply isn’t correct and makes no sense. You’ve done it often in the past, and it gets old in a hurry.
Also, Oregonian, I’m not a big fan of public schools, but I also am not a big fan of dismissing someone’s opinion about public schools simply because that person works for a public school. I don’t want anyone to dismiss my comments about Mormonism simply because I am Mormon. I am going to let go of the control on my sarcasm for a moment and say that I don’t dismiss your comments out of hand about mean-spirited comments simply because you write so many of them. If they are valid, I will try to learn from them, anyway.
As was said, the man was not arrested for his stance on anything; he was arrested for his refusal to leave the building. Aside from the law that I believe he actually did break, he acted like a jerk. I have no sympathy whatsoever for him.
I’ve been in both places– 3 places actually. I’ve homeschooled, put them in public school and now have them in private school. So I have the perspective of having been in all three situations.
The conversation thus far automatically reminded of a conversation I had with my kids’ public school principal, when I told him that we were trying to sell the house and move into a better district. I’d been very involved with the school, was up there several times a week, was on the PTA board, etc. But during this conversation I was very honest with him– and he didn’t really like it. 🙂 And you have to understand that this is a man I GREATLY admire. I think he’s a phenomenal principal. I like his philosophies, his methodology, etc– but there’s only so much he can do. He has no control over the home life of the students, and when the kids BRING that home life to school with them (foul language, inappropriate behavior, “reverse” racism, complete disrespect for authority, rules, teachers, etc) and district administration ties his hands behind his back, he can’t really put effective discipline measures into place to handle it. My problem wasn’t with the principal, teachers, curriculum, etc. It was the students and the kind of environment that my kids were in 7 hours a day, 5 days a week BECAUSE of the students and the District’s unwillingness to REALLY DEAL with the problem and enforce rules and expectations. I just didn’t want my kids in that environment anymore. It was a rather hostile one (wasn’t too bad at first, but got substantially worse) with behavior problems so overbearing that it was keeping my kids and the few other good students from progressing. When my now 3rd grader switched to her new school (a private Catholic one) she was an entire year behind in math. Not because the new school is so good and “ahead” of other schools, but because her previous school is so far BEHIND where it should be. And that’s not because of poor teachers– it’s because the students are so lacking in self-discipline, self-respect, respect toward others, toward adults, have no real motivation from home to learn or progress, and parents who are so uneducated and poorly behaved themselves. The high school where I was working lost 17 teachers this past year. My kids’ previous school lost 11. Even the teachers are leaving.
So when I expressed my concerns to him– why we were looking to move to another district (and before we decided to go private until we move) I KNOW that he knew EXACTLY what I was talking about. Still, his response was exactly what I anticipated, and it was an understandable one, and even one I agreed with– but only to a certain point. His response was that parents/teachers need to STAY in the school to make the necessary changes– it can’t get better if all the good families pull their kids out to go to other districts, private schools or homeschool. And I AGREE with that. The problem was, that I felt like I’d done all I could do. I gave them my kids, my time, my influence and my efforts for 3 years– that was enough for me. The district isn’t going to change it’s methods, or policies and procedures just because I say they should. If mediocrity is their goal, then mediocrity is what they’re going to get. When the Superintendent herself is a poorly educated, poor spoken twit who can’t spell or form a grammatically correct sentence then what can we expect from the district? I’ll bet she was passed through her classes just the way half the kids at the high school are. Additionally, there’s nothing my kids’ school principal can do to improve the homes his students come from– which in my opinion is THE number 1 problem with my kids’ previous school.
I told him that I AGREED with him. If all the good parents pull their kids out then there’s no hope for the schools to change unless there’s a dramatic change in the administration, school board philosophies, etc. (Which is incredibly unlikely in our very liberal, inner city type of district) I told him that I understand that it HURTS the school when good kids leave, when the involved parents leave, etc, BUT I’d given it 3 years– and I couldn’t see sacrificing my children in an attempt to save everyone else’s. He didn’t like that. In fact, he said “Sacrifice? That’s a really strong word Mrs. Keeney”. Yeah, it is. But it’s exactly how I felt. My kids were suffering, in their education and emotionally. They weren’t comfortable there, they didn’t feel safe, and no matter what I did, no matter how involved I was, I couldn’t change that. Personally, I feel like I let it go on too long and I regret that now.
Each parent has to decide what they’re willing to tolerate. NO school, public or private is going to be perfect with the perfect teachers, the perfect students, the perfect curriculum, the perfect home lives of students, etc, and we have to decide where “the line” is for us and our families.
There are alot of things to consider. The father in the video was upset about a curriculum issue and lack of parental notification. If schools are purposely sneaking in objectionable material then parents have to decide “do I stay and try to make a change or do I pull my kids out”. But was this a specific teacher not following procedure? Or was it a problem on the school administration level, the district level? That makes a difference.
If enough parents bind together in a cause and raise enough of a stink, then it’s possible to make a change. But the truth is 90% of parents AREN’T involved. (I’m totally making up that number– but I’ll bet it’s pretty darn accurate!) Go to any PTA meeting and you’ll see. 10 or so parents out of student body of 350 kids. Ask any classroom teacher about parental involvement and you’ll hear the same thing. Maybe 2 or 3 parents who are actively involved and that’s it.
So here’s the deal– parents MUST be intimately involved with their kids education– whether it’s through public schools, private schools or homeschools. (You’d think that homeschooling automatically means good parental involvement, but I know homeschooling moms who are just as bad as some public school moms– they let the kids “teach themselves”, work when they want to, study what they want to, for how every long they want to, even if it’s only 30 minutes– meanwhile mom is napping.)
If Jennycherie or any other parent is really involved with their kids’ school, is aware of problems, voices their concerns, tries to affect a change and CAN make a difference, then that’s an ideal situation.
Would I have pulled my kids out of public school just because one teacher did something stupid and didn’t notify parents of a lesson on homosexuality? No. I’d sure raise a ruckus though. I’d call for their dismissal. I’d certainly pull my kid from THAT class and insist on a different teacher. I’d do whatever I could to fix the problem.
But, if the school didn’t effectively deal with the problem, didn’t at LEAST apply serious consequences for the teacher, then yes, I’d pull my kids out and either try a different school in the district, an entirely different district, go private, homeschool– whatever was necessary. If the school/district is going to allow teachers to sneak in objectionable material then my kids won’t be there, period. That’s a “line” for me. It’s a deal breaker. It’s something I won’t tolerate. And every parent needs to determine those “lines” for themselves.
In the 3 years my kids were going to the public school, I did what I could, but the problems were ones I couldn’t change– homes and district administration. I finally had enough, realized my powerlessness and made a decision to pull them out. And had we not received the scholarships from the private school, I’d be homeschooling them right now.
You also have to remember that money plays a big part in this. Not everyone can AFFORD to put their kids into a private school. WE can’t! They’re ONLY there because of the scholarships.
And not everyone can afford to homeschool, either. Not because it costs alot of money, but because not everyone can quit their jobs to stay home and do it.
And Oregonian– Jenny can answer for herself– but since she hasn’t responded yet, I’ll just let you know that she teaches at a private Catholic college. She’s not a public school teacher.
It was a peaceful demonstration, Ray. Kind of like Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on the bus for a white man. He was asking for parental notification of hom os exual lectures being taught in Kindergarten. Do you not think he had a right to be notified ahead of time? Do you think the public schools have a right to teach anything they like and not be held accountable?
Jenny said: “Perhaps they believe in being part of the solution and CHANGING what is wrong rather than leaving. Are we going to let crazy people take over everything or are we going to get involved and make it better?”
That is noble, Jenny. I totally understand that as a motivation. But, my own mother spent most of my growing up years trying to make the Nevada and California public schools better. By the time I was in high school, she decided it was a lost cause and started a private school for my four younger siblings. Guess what? The public schools improved. They started offering the gifted program she had been asking for for years. They kept that program running for eight years, the same amount of time that mom’s school was listed in the phone book, and then they shut it down, the same year that the listing for Golden Hills Academy was removed from the phone book.
It makes me wonder how much improvement the schools would be willing to make if we provided them with a credible threat to their existence.
“Do you not think he had a right to be notified ahead of time? Do you think the public schools have a right to teach anything they like and not be held accountable?”
Again, I never even implied that. Not even close.
“It makes me wonder how much improvement the schools would be willing to make if we provided them with a credible threat to their existence.”
I’m all for that, especially if you can find a way to provide it for the poor kids, as well. Most “alternatives” aren’t for them.
Vouchers are specifically for poor kids.
So, how would you have held the school accountable?
No, ma’am. I work for a private, Catholic college.
and many poor kids can’t take advantage of vouchers, because those schools aren’t required in many cases to provide transportation.
I honestly don’t have time to answer that last question, but I spent 10 years of my life trying to do so.
I’ve had exactly the opposite experience with my children’s schools. Not everything I want to change, gets changed, but many do. Generally, when I have a problem, I take it directly to the teacher, then, if necessary, the principal. It is very easy to work with individual schools and explain your concerns and change what ails you. While I have found the administration at the district level to be aggravating and unresponsive, the teachers and administrators of our individual schools are extremely responsive to parent concerns and anxious to improve our school.
totally agree with that! Add to that the time wasted for assemblies and field trips (with questionable educational value) and still no time for recess?
Again, I completely agree. There is much to be frustrated over and much that needs improving.
more later, after FHE!
Wow! For someone who likes to look for commonalities with other people’s views and focus on those, I must admit that this article left me with virtually nothing I could agree with and came across as very jdugmental and offensive (sorry, Alison– I love you, but I totally disagree with pretty much everything in this article!).
I admire homeschoolers and have considered homeschooling myself. That said- the thought of having everyone pull their children out of public schools and homeschool makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to think what it would do to our kids, our communities and our world- and I’m not thinking of what it would do to public schools! Public schools would be fine and would adjust to the new numbers of kids in public school (a VERY DIFFERENT thing than vouchers– I’m not even going there!) What scares me is to think of how unprepared the majority of American kids would be to move into the workforce if every child was educated at home and no public schools were available. At a time when education is more and more important, the mere suggestion that all parents should assume the responsibility for educating their children makes me literally sick to my stomach.
Most parents are NOT in a position to educate their children in all of the necessary areas. SOME ARE– this is NOT any commentary on those who choose to homeschool. For those that decide that homeschooling is a good option for them- go for it! Some will be very successful with it, and some will find in the end that their children did not get everything they needed– just like some in public schools do.
My point is that some parents have their children in public schools because they believe that there are teachers there with better qualifications, better methods, access to group activities and experiences and materials, and that their children are benefitting from the experience. The suggestion that those parents are WRONG to do so is offensive, plain and simple. I am an extremely intelligent person who got straight A’s in high school and college. Nevertheless, my math and science skills are not on the level of those who have been hired to teach my children, two of whom plan to become doctors and need to have strong skills and two others who are looking at careers that will require extensive math skills. I am not qualified to teach my daughter to play the cello or the violin or my son to play the trombone– and while I have put them in private lessons for some instruments, I am very grateful for the opportunities they have to get started and to excel through school (and yes- we do have an orchestral program that is known throughout the state). I
am a collaborator– it’s what I do. My strength is putting together teams of people who have skills that complement each other so that everyone can benefit from each other’s strengths. I view my children’s public school experiences in the same way. The teachers teach, I stay involved through PTA and provide opportunities for ALL students (not just my own) that the teachers can not provide, and together we have achieved the distinction of being one of only about 100 schools across the nation that are ‘Schools to Watch’. Do I think I had a part in achieving that? You bet I do!! Do I think I was the only one? Of course not– it takes a lot of people- administration, teachers, parents, students, local businesses, local non-profits, community members. The point is- together we can and have achieved a public school environment that works for a LOT of kids!
Does it work for everyone? NO. Is it perfect? Absolutely Not! Are my kids exposed to teachings and behavior by other students that are contrary to what I teach them at home? YES. That’s why I, as a parent, stay almost as involved in my kids’ schools as they are, including helping to hire the key players– and why we talk often and read scriptures daily and actively work to not only teach my children the gospel, but help them to internalize gospel principles and to be strong enough to stick to their principles regardless of what they hear or see or are encouraged to do in the real world— and all children, regardless of where they are educated, will face such things in the real world.
So– I have made a choice to send my kids to public school based on many considerations– NOT convenience– and I don’t believe that my choice makes me any less a good LDS parent than another parent who has made a different choice. Any insinuation that my choice is lazy or a copout or wrong is short-sighted and yes- offensive.
Love you, Alison, but this article appears to me as a deliberate attempt to stir people up and sow contention. Since I choose not to participate in contention I won’t be making any more responses.
That’s what they want you to believe, but they AREN’T!! This is a whole different topic- but poor kids will not benefit from vouchers. I know- I have been there myself and I work with many ‘poor’ families, and the vouchers would do them absolutely no good whatsoever. Vouchers would benefit some middle-income families, but mostly benefit the wealthy.
Alison,
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
I think I’m understanding more what you are saying, and I have had some similar thoughts — like what would happen if we all pulled kids out, to send a message? I wondered if I had done that if I lived in Mass, or if I would do that in CA (esp. if prop 8 doesn’t pass).
That said, I still think that something that largescale is something I would feel more comfy with if leaders actually encouraged it. I think we could end up doing more harm than good if we were to all pull out at the same time. I’d also worry about the impact on kids who have no home life. I’m not saying I think it’s good that schools provide more for those kids than they should, but in a way, at least we as LDS have a foundation to teach our kids. What of those kids who don’t have that advantage? I feel some responsibility to them, too, in some way, although I know that the system as it is isn’t exactly the stellar source of anchoring, etc.
I dunno. It’s just another facet of what is hard in these latter days. 🙂 I will be interested to see what happens if and when gay marriage becomes more widespread.
Sheesh, I’m feeling like almost no one ever read the article before commenting. Where did I suggest that everyone homeschool?
Maybe a more interesting discussion is, “What would the nauseating effect of it be on our children, communities, and world?”
I guess it would there and in the title itself “Pull Your Kids Out of Public School”. Granted- I guess you didn’t say specifically ‘homeschool,’ but most parents do not consider private school as an option due to finances, and they provide the same type of ‘babysitting’ you denounced in your article, so I guess that’s why private schools didn’t come to mind as an option. The other option you mention– co-op schools– is similar to homeschooling. I guess it could be a great option if you put together a team of parents who have all of the necessary ‘experience’ required.
Anyway– I did read every word of the article and all of it put together left me with the impression that you were encouraging everyone to pull their kids out of schools and take on the responsibility for educating their kids themselves. That’s what I heard- sorry if I heard it differently than you meant it.
Just as note, I took my son to basketball practice right after writing my first post and he was telling me how he’s done with keyboarding now and just started his health class. I asked him what he would do if his teacher taught him that being gay was normal. His immediate response was, “I’d quit listening- it doesn’t match what the prophet teaches.” He then went on to tell me that it happens sometimes where what they learn in school doesn’t match what he already knows to be true, like how the world was created. He even pointed out a book we use frequently teaches something counter to what we believe, so he ignores that part, but it doesn’t change the fact that the other information regarding our health is true. He finished by saying that the only books where everything is absolutely true is the Book of Mormon and books written by the General Authorities. He said that all other books have to be read carefully and compared to gospel principles and teachings. That’s from an 11-year-old!
I’m glad that in our school they notify us of what will be taught regarding sex education and even require a parental consent form for the kids to take part in those discussions. However, I’m even more glad that my children have been taught gospel principles each week in church and each day in our home so that when they encounter teachings and behavior that don’t match up, they know to ‘quit listening’. I’m glad that he is aware of the importance of staying alert as he gathers information, whether through reading, at school, or via other modes . . . and I know all of your children have been taught that as well.
I’ve never been accused of that before! I don’t give a hoot about focusing on commonalities with others’ views and don’t think my writing reflects an effort in that regard. At least not given the comments I often get.
I don’t care if I sound judgmental. I make judgments all day long. So do you. And your post is judgmental as well. I’m not offended that it is, but if you don’t like others passing judgment, they you shouldn’t do it either, right? 🙂
Oh, I see. They can “adjust” to a billion people leaving the school to homeschool, but they can NOT adjust to the same number going to a private school? Please explain.
Ah, the true purpose of education revealed, to prepare a workforce. Communist Manifesto, no?
😎 You’re serious? Because, I assume, the government is more suited to assume this responsibility? Now THAT is scary.
First, who says parents are going to educate their children in “all areas.” Assuming responsibility for something doesn’t mean DOING it.
Second, I suggest that most parents actually are qualified. Have you looked at the requirements for an El Ed degree lately? Little content, a great deal of classroom management. At BYU (at least when I was in college and my sister-in-law was getting her El Ed degree) most coursework could be made up with extra credit. What was the extra credit? “Doing tear sheets.” What are those? “Picture you tear out of magazines and file by category to use on bulletin boards.” That’s from my SIL who was finishing her degree at the time. That’s how she got straight A’s–according to HER. She thought it was grand.
At Lehi High (when we lived in its boundaries) the AP Physics class was taught by…the cheerleading coach. Yea, that’s rigid certification.
I might have agreed with you a few years ago. I don’t anymore. I don’t think I have EVER seen a kid for whom ALL PUBLIC SCHOOL was really the best prescription for quality education.
From reading my posts, you probably know that my kids attend public school. This year Belinda is taking four classes and Alana is taking four classes. They are classes that (1) they are interested in and (2) that have good teachers. If ANY class doesn’t provide both those things, we don’t take it–BECAUSE we are not locked into what the school board said my kids HAD TO TAKE.
Belinda started to take one class this semester and after a week said it wasn’t teaching her what she had wanted to learn. We looked at the textbook together and agreed it was psychobabble. I went into the office and withdrew her. Yes, they asked me why and I was honest. Yes, they tried to convince me that it was an awesome class. But it wasn’t for her.
Last year Alana signed up for English. After two weeks she was pulling her hair out. “We just spent an entire WEEK studying CONJUNCTIONS! I’m 14! How long can it take!” She stayed in for the semester, got straight A’s, and dropped out because it was a waste of time. When she dropped it we got the usual, “Oh! But this class is REQUIRED! She can’t graduate if she doesn’t take it!” I just said (for the 15th time), “That’s OK. We don’t plan to use Alpine School District for our accreditation anyway.”
So, no, we didn’t use Lehi for AP Physics, but we did use it for it’s award winning drama program and it’s fun choral program.
This brings up another point. What is the PURPOSE of school?
I was concert master at Mountain View High School. In fact, my last two years, four of my six classes were orchestra, ballroom dance team, A Cappella, and Chamber Singers. It was great fun, but was it reasonably the purpose of school to provide amusement to kids?
Before I’m accused, please note that I haven’t drawn the hard line, I’m asking what you think it is. But I’m not positive that the public at large should fund trombone, violin, and cello lessons for your kids (or mine).
Willow Creek Middle School (in west Lehi) doesn’t have a cafeteria. They have a “cafetorium.” It’s a huge, soaring space (40 feet high or so?) with an enormous, scoreboard still video screen. You know, to show important things like the date for parent teacher conference and cool screen savers.
To me, that is way over the line in spending OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY. And I suspect a lot of other things are as well.
Kudos to you. But that doesn’t address the point of the article at all.
I think you missed the main questions I posed in the article, Sharilee. It seems to me that as a big school advocate (don’t some of your nonprofits even bring you income?) you saw the title and got defensive without really reading carefully.
This last paragraph I quote implies that being involved is THE solution. I disagree. Of course it helps. But my question was, “But when is enough, enough? When will we draw the line?” At what point does the school system become too corrupt for YOU. Will it EVER?
Here’s what I’ve seen over the past 20 years. Parents complain and gripe and fuss. They raise a stink about a problem. They say they won’t tolerate any more. They volunteer and give in to demands of the school boards and the NEA. Nothing changes. Things get worse. And they put up with it. When push comes to shove, the PARENTS lose. The PARENTS move the line (again) and the PARENTS lower the bar of what they will accept. Because public school is the only thing going–or at least the only thing with a bus that shows up on the street.
Yea, that’s love. If you want to know my motive, just ask. I can’t think of a time that I wrote an article for the purpose of getting people mad. It just so happens that sometimes what I think does just that.
And the NEA is making sure that barrier isn’t removed. But, yes, that’s my point, most parents don’t even know what the possibilities ARE. They just assume there is only one game in town.
I believe that ALL parents should be responsible for the education of their children. That has never required them to do it alone, isolated, in a room with no windows.
So, you have no problem with “diversity training” that includes teaching about homosexual relationships beginning in kindergarten with no parental notification? What about New York’s “Heather Has Two Mommies?” How about the required condom sex comedy class in Colorado last year? (Sex ed started in kindergarten in Palm Beach County when we lived there, but at that time they let us opt out.)
Since the former was the catalyst for this discussion, that bears discussion. How far can the schools go with your kids? How long will you stay? If Prop 8 fails and this spreads here, will you tolerate it? And/or hope your children can “quit listening” even if they are tested on the material?
I don’t put much stock in consent from an institution that, more and more, thinks parents aren’t qualified to figure out this super complex education stuff. (Come to think of it, that is your position, too.) Let me tell you a story.
Belinda wanted to try school in 7th grade (this was Lehi Jr. High). She signed up for a full compliment of classes. One was (of course!) the required English class. In her English class they were required to read “Night” by Elie Wiesel. It’s a book about the holocaust.
When I was 13, my parents wouldn’t let me read “The Diary of Anne Frank” (that my sister was reading) because they thought it was too graphic. Night is far more disturbing than Anne. When Belinda was reading it, she was disturbed by the images (such as the graphic descriptions of children hanging in gallows). When she complained, Sam and I both read the book and agreed it was inappropriate for a 12-year-old.
We politely contacted the teacher and told her that we thought it was too graphic for our daughter. We didn’t rant and rage. We didn’t scream. We used all the proper “I’ language and didn’t even go as far as to point out the truth: that it was probably too graphic for ALL these kids and that this probably wasn’t really the best example of fine literature she could find for an ENGLISH class.
Finally, the teacher, begrudgingly agreed to give Belinda a different assignment. One crises over. Or so I thought.
The next week she showed extensive, graphic film footage of the holocaust. Naked prisoners in concentration camps, lined up for the gas chamber; piles of bodies being bulldozed into mass graves.
When Belinda told the teacher (talk about guts from 12-year-old!) that she didn’t want to watch it, the teacher told her to sit in her seat and watch the movie.
In case you’re going to ask, yes, we did talk to the principle about it. No, nothing was done or changed. The principle couldn’t see any problems with the situation. Oh, except that we were nutty parents who wouldn’t leave education to the “experts.”
I don’t think we teach our children the gospel and then allow the schools to expose them to whatever the fad of the day is, no matter how perverted an corrupt it gets.
Either schools INFLUENCE or they don’t. If they do NOT, then why are you sending your kids there 7 hours per day, 180 days per year? And if they DO, then parents darn well better create standards in what the “experts” are teaching them–because being taught that evil is normal and good, day in and day out, WILL influence them.
I think that for me, that is the line. Tracy and I are in the same school district, but our kids have not gone to the same schools. If/when we get to the point that we are in the same situation, we would absolutely do the same thing and pull our kids out, even if it means I have to go back to working nights at Wal-mart.
that wasn’t at all my intent, those were just the two things that stood out to me and I was trying to keep from quoting too much!
I do get your point here – – it is just as dangerous to automatically use public school without considering what is best as it is to homeschool because that’s what “good LDS people” do. I’m not saying you suggested that, but that it seems often implied in discussions with those who homeschool (or maybe a few specific people who homeschool :wink:). Public schools don’t make you patriotic any more than homeschooling makes you righteous!
You know, I do think that when you’ve tried and cannot make a change, that is a great time to get out. I don’t think that as a whole, we can say that it’s a lost cause across the board. I’ve probably said this before elsewhere on this forum but we heard HORRIBLE things about our school before we ever went there. But we decided to find out for ourselves and did not find it horrible at all. It’s far from idyllic, but it is not at all the horror it was reputed to be. When I compare notes with my mom, it is far better (at least as far as teachers go) than the school I went to. Same thing with our middle school (so far, fingers crossed :shocked:). It has the WORST reputation. And, in spite of our (so far, good) experience, we still want to move out of this district BUT we’ve been completely amazed at the teachers, their caring and their very high expectations for our son. Ironically, the problems we’ve had so far have occurred during the one day/week he attends the gifted program. Okay, now I’m getting off on a tangent!
oops – in the interest of full disclosure, I *did* teach at a public high school for one year back in the 90s.
jennycheire, didn’t mean to ignore your post!
Of course they do. I was a PTA board member, room mother, and elected to the School Advisory Counsel. That’s exactly where I learned how much input into METHODS and CONTENT the schools want.
Of course they do! They want people to volunteer as much as possible. Your point is?
I didn’t assert that it’s the only reason “people use public schools.” I believe the vote went the way it did because of personal benefit, rather than holding to principles or doing the right thing. The debate against vouchers was substantively void of logic. Even the president of the NEA couldn’t make sense of it. She was interview on the Doug Wright show on KSL. (Doug is only marginally conservative and was a sympathetic interviewer.) She was blathering nonsense.
Yes. And he refused to leave because they refused to provide notification. It was a civil, non-violent protest, but Kristen already addressed that.
Bologna. As I said, I don’t think it’s the only reason people use them. I do think it’s the primary reason people don’t look into alternatives. It’s too much trouble and they don’t know where to start and it’s hard to know what to do and the school’s not so bad, really.
It’s the same reason most parents haven’t even formed an educational philosophy. They don’t demand a standard from where ever they send their kids, because they don’t HAVE a standard. They have just passed on that dirty work to the government.
While I don’t necessarily disagree, that isn’t addressing the question. The question is “When is enough, enough? When will we draw the line? How much are LDS parents willing to allow in the name of the convenience of free ? government education?”
I am actually asking parents to stop “getting to know the janitor” long enough to DECIDE what they expect from schools and to determine what their standard of education and moral teaching is. I’m asking LDS parents to acknowledge that there SHOULD be a point at which they will no longer accept the world’s standards being forced on their children.
FWIW, I found that I was much more effective when I actually started educated my kids directly, than when I was discussing computer installations with the other members of the Science & Technology Committee (which had no power to authorize the purchase or installation anyway), cutting out 200 black construction paper fences for an art project, manning the cake walk at the PTA fair, or chatting it up with the lunch ladies.
jennycherie, just read your last post up there. Don’t have time to comment, but you make some very good points. Thank you! I also appreciate the ideas put forth about times when you would leave for the sake of your kids. That’s what I’m talking about.
Willow Creek Middle School (in west Lehi) doesn’t have a cafeteria. They have a “cafetorium.” It’s a huge, soaring space (40 feet high or so?) with an enormous, scoreboard still video screen. You know, to show important things like the date for parent teacher conference and cool screen savers.
To me, that is way over the line in spending OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY. And I suspect a lot of other things are as well.
< Yeah, the money should have gone to better areas like on gang control or something.
:clap: Your family would know. Eh, Lewis?
Unfortunately, yes. I still get sick sometimes thinking how anyone could feel in their mind it ok to put their hands on someone else, let alone my sibling.
I just spent an hour responding to your questions, Alison, and when I went to post it told me I wasn’t signed in and erased it all. I’m not doing that again. I don’t find this the least bit uplifting. Please call me if you want a response.
I do love you- I just don’t agree with the article. I read every word several times and I never once made a judgemental comment about anyone else or the choices they have made, only regarding the article itself and the blanket judgement that came across to me regarding those who have chosen public schools. However, you will have to interpret my comments as you will–
Things like that are absolutely infuriating. What a ridiculous waste of money! The college where I teach is currently debating the use of video screens in student areas (primarily for announcements, I believe) and it has been hotly contested by the faculty, largely as a waste of money. I also have a huge problem with administrators getting humongous offices furnished at great expense. Again, a ridiculous waste of money.
Yeah– two different student bodies– makes a BIG difference.
I have to admit Alison, I think you’re right about many parents not even CONSIDERING that there are other options. Like you said, they went to public schools and it never dawns on them that there are options. Not because they’re lazy or because there’s free transportation to public schools, but honestly just because it never even enters their mind that public school isn’t the ONLY feasible way.
As you know, we STARTED with homeschooling. I clearly knew there was an option to public school. And as I’ve stated before, I wasn’t and never have been “anti” public school. The ONLY reason I started homeschooling was because my son didn’t turn 5 by the August 1st and he was SO ready so I decided to teach him myself at home. Then, when the next year came around and I realized it was an all day program and not half day, I didn’t want him to go. (I HAVE always been “anti- all day Kindergarten”. And since things had been going so well, and because I had friends who’d been homeschooling for years who could help me along, I went ahead and dived in.
But when he got to 5th grade and we realized that it was no longer working well, it never even DAWNED on me to go to a private school for the SOLE reason that I would never have thought it was even a possiblity for us. Put my kids in private school? And what’s next? A mansion in Malibu with our own private Leer jet? Because as we all know, the police departments pay SO well! 🙂 Seriously though- I never would have thought for one minute that my kids could go to a private school. I did’t know they even HAD scholarship programs. I didn’t know you could volunteer “in trade” for partial tuition. I didn’t know, because I didn’t check. And I didn’t check because it never even occurred to me to TRY and check, just like I’d never check the realty sites for a home in Malibu. So we did what I THOUGHT was the only other option for us and put them in public school. Sara was going to that particular school because it’s where the Special Ed program was, and that’s why we ended up putting all the kids there (instead of at the one they were SUPPOSE to go to, where Jennycherie’s go). It wasn’t the “ideal” school, but I KNEW the principal, I KNEW the teachers. And in particular, I KNEW the teacher that James would have was EXACTLY the kind of teacher that he needed. Plus, all the kids would be together, same school, etc. And it DID work well that first year. And– they weren’t bussed since the district won’t provide transportation to a school that isn’t the child’s “home” school.
Then, when it was time for James to move up to another school, and we didn’t want him to go there, I checked into the private one- ONLY because a new family had moved into the ward and had THEIR kids there and she told me about the cost. (I would have tried the homeschooling again) It wasn’t as much as I thought it would be ((400 though, so still alot) but that’s something I could make just by working part time while the kids were in school. So that’s exactly what we did. Through our involvement in the school we learned about the scholarships and now the 3 of them are there.
Dead serious though– I never would have even THOUGHT about our kids going to a private school. I always thought that was something that only “rich” people could do, and we’re not rich.
So it never even occured to me as a possibility.
I don’t doubt that alot of people feel the same way about homeschooling. I know alot of people don’t even consider it an option because they think they have to be a degreed, certified teacher in order to provide a solid education, or as mentioned earlier, that homeschooling means that THEY PERSONALLY have to be the one to do all the teaching (which is why they think they’d have to be super smart and educated in all areas in order to do it well). They don’t think they’re smart enough, patient enough, are afraid to fail their children, etc. I think alot of it is a matter of lacking the self-confidance to do it.
In Boca, back when I was the perfect school mom, I sat in a SAC (School Advisory Counsel) meeting, as an elected representative of one district. The SAC has parents, teachers, and administrators who serve on it.
The school my daughter attended had free breakfast, subsidized lunch, and both before- and after-school care provided. (And, mind you, there aren’t many places in West Boca that wouldn’t be considered at least modestly affluent.) Some kids were at the school for nearly 12 hours per day.
At one meeting a teacher suggested that the poor parents were too stressed to attend to their children for the four hours per day that actually had to be their “primary care providers.” She suggested that we could (at taxpayer expense, of course) implement a DINNER program, not just for kids, but parents as well. The parents could come to school after work, eat dinner with their kids, and then take them home.
I suggested a better idea. “If we just use the lunchroom to set up cots and portable wardrobes, the parents won’t have to deal with the stress of their children at all!”
I still can’t figure out why they rejected my idea.
Hilarious, I can claim I know someone who spouts the epitome of sarcasm.
HA!! Oh believe me, the issues of “the poor kids” during PTA board meetings were ALWAYS a sore spot with me. Funny how the “poor kids” who can’t afford to buy uniforms (so the PTA buys them FOR them and/or lets them come to school completley out of uniform), who can’t even pay 35 cents for a reduced cost lunch, who’s parents can’t afford to feed their kids breakfast (even though they’re on WIC and WIC is almost 90% BREAKFAST food!), who can’t afford to pay 5 dollars toward the school field trip, (so the PTA does it for them), MIRACULOUSLY have plenty of money to wear THE fanciest, name-brand clothing to school, have DOLLARS to spend at the snack and pop machines, have their own cell phones and always seem to have the newest technology for video games and Ipods.
We’re talking a SERIOUS pet peeve with me!!
They just had a HUGE bust down in the city. There’s a lot of Section 8 housing down there, and the police raided an entire apartment complex. All but 4 of the 77 tenants were arrested for fraud. They ALL had jobs and/or spouses/boyfriends/girlfriends who had jobs that they were hiding from the government. “I’m a single mom, I’m poor with no job. Give me healthcare and food stamps and pay my rent and utilities.” Meanwhile they’re working, their boyfriend is working AND living with them. And there goes my hard EARNED tax dollars!
Sorry– I got on my rant and changed the subject.
We now return you to the original programing.
It’s sad how lost the real poor kids get because there are so many “poor” kids… if that makes sense.
Total sense. You should watch me trying to find a handicapped parking space.
This is what Ray wrote about this thread on another blog:
Charming, Ray. We are honored that you attempt to keep us on the straight and narrow. Or whatever path you think we’re supposed to be on. 😐
Sorry, bad code. It’s fixed now.
so its not ok to question a post here but its ok to act like our spiritual leader on a different blog?
and she didnt bother to read the article. parroting doesnt contribute much when you dont really know whats going on.
i didnt dismiss it i asked for full disclosure just like what allison asked sharilee. where someones bread it buttered matters. follow the money.
Alison, That sight is a very liberal site, and I am seen by most as the token conservative “True Believing Mormon”. I almost always am on the “wrong side” of the discussion there, although I try to see where we share beliefs and build on them. Everyone was jumping on the support bandwagon, and, given how they view me as the one who disagrees with everything, I thought the sarcasm of my comment was obvious. I haven’t been back to see the reaction. (I just went there, found that post and apologized to everyone. Nobody commented about the original comment, so they might have understood or just ignored it, but I apologized anyway – since I have no way of knowing how they took it.) I will apologize to you here, but I needed to make it clear there, also.
Sometimes, I really hate internet communication.
Ok, I am still lost… were some comments meant to be whispered?
Alison, I really do regret that comment not translating like I assumed it would. I botched it badly, even though I know I shouldn’t make assumptions that people will understand my sarcasm. I simply thought my reputation there would make it obvious.
Please, in the future, if you have a question or concern about something I write somewhere else, either whisper me or send an e-mail. I have no idea if everyone here will understand and accept my apology, but I do know there are at the very least a couple who never have liked me and now assume I am a hypocritical jerk. I doubt there is anything I can do or say now to change that perception, and I really doubt they will believe my apology – which means they probably now think I am a hypocritical jerk and a liar.
Having said that, this still is my fault. I understand your shock and surprise and anger. I just wish you would have come directly to me. I love what you have here, and I have enjoyed it thoroughly. I hope this doesn’t ruin it, but if it does, please realize I am deeply sorry for the way it ended. It really was a terrible, mistaken assumption on my part. I didn’t think people would take it seriously; obviously, I was wrong.
“Ok, I am still lost… were some comments meant to be whispered?”
No, Lewis. I wanted to make the apology public, since the comment was posted publicly. I made a horribly incorrect assumption, and I should not have done that. This is my fault — mine alone.
Ray, I appreciate your comments. Thank you.
I do think it’s the primary reason people don’t look into alternatives. It’s too much trouble and they don’t know where to start and it’s hard to know what to do and the school’s not so bad, really.
It’s the same reason most parents haven’t even formed an educational philosophy. They don’t demand a standard from where ever they send their kids, because they don’t HAVE a standard. They have just passed on that dirty work to the government.
I’m sure this is probably true for some people, but I really have never liked generalizations like this at all. But maybe that is because I’m surrounded by people who care a lot about their kids’ education AND have their kids in public school.
Again I will say that I know the public school system has lots of issues. But I am still not convinced that the answer is, end of story, to pull kids out of public school. Even if prop 8 doesn’t pass.
But…you’re in Utah County, not California. Does that make a difference, do you think?
But that has nothing to do with what I said. I didn’t say they “don’t care.” I said they work almost exclusively to work WITHIN a generally crummy system because (1) it’s too much trouble to do otherwise and (2) they don’t see alternatives as viable.
I didn’t say it was either. As I keep pointing out, my own kids use the schools for selective things. The problem I see is that many public school parents will NEVER, realistically, consider pulling their kids out to be an option. That’s why I ask WHERE IS YOUR LINE? How much more will you accept?
What I see, decade after decade, is parents who get mad, but just keep moving their standard lower and lower to follow what the schools throw at them. Then they start trying to make what’s going on sound “not so bad” because they won’t research, consider, or go to the trouble of using an alternative.
Some of the stuff going on around the country has been really morally vacant and appalling for years. But it goes on and gets worse. And our kids ares still there, because we ignore the incremental creep of things and continue to accommodate the decline.
Nothing will change while the NEA runs the show–unless the dollars speak to them and they are TERRIFIED of competition. (For good reason.) But as far as I can tell, the convenience of government education–like a free rent check every month–has conditioned people to go to the assigned school, volunteer endlessly, meekly and politely give input, and then just take whatever they get. And if things get really crappy, well, they just have to try harder and “be part of the solution.”
Let me put it to you this way. If there were no public schools and three private schools in your city that were generally the same–one that taught gay marriage diversity classes and sex ed to kindergartens and two that didn’t–which would you choose? More to the point, if YOUR school started doing read alouds like “Heather Has Two Mommies,” and refused to so much as tell you about it, would you stay there?
Maybe, but I have thought about this a lot lately, and I think I would definitely consider it, but this one issue to me is not necessarily reason to pull them out. I’m thinking about writing a post about what I have been thinking about.
I’m NOT criticizing those who do pull their kids out. And I won’t blame people if they do, esp in CA. And what happens there very likely will affect us here because I think that a lot of curriculum comes from there.
But here’s the thing. Is it really good for parents to pull their kids out in a REACTIVE way just because of something like this? Is that always going to be what is best for the kids? Some parents don’t have a clue about how to teach or what to teach or don’t have the money for private school or whatever. Just telling people to pull kids out to me is not wise.
In a rough way, it’s like the markets. If you pull out in a panic and not because you are smart and know what you are doing, you could end up causing yourself (and maybe even the system) more problems.
I am coming to feel that the most important thing is not what we do in relation to the schools, but how we prepare our kids spiritually. And there are many ways to prepare and provide protection from them. Taking kids out of public school is not the only way to keep them safe.
These are just my thoughts right now. I may change my mind over time, though. We still have yet to see how this will all pan out.
I think you make good points, Michelle.
A couple of things, though.
Why the objection to being reactive? I know PROactive is the more popular approach but, really, everything is reactive in some way.
This situation started with a kindergartner. And I’m telling you I do not personally know a single parent outside of abusers and drug addicts (whom I don’t personally know anyway) who isn’t “qualified” to teach kindergarten. Seriously, what expertise do you need? Colors? Picture books? Modes of transportation?
And let’s leap right on up AT LEAST to middle school. What do the teachers need to know to teach at this level? More to the point, what in-depth content did they learn to get their degrees? Generally speaking, el ed majors aren’t rocket scientists. I don’t begrudge anyone who IS a teacher some are remarkable but as far as qualifications go, it’s a pretty slim field. In fact, studies have shown all sorts of interesting things. For example, research by Lucy Sells showed that the majority of El Ed majors CHOOSE the major BECAUSE it did not require upper level mathematics! So you not only don’t have to like math or be good at it, but you can have severe math avoidance issues and still be considered a great all-around teacher for elementary students.
I’m not trying to be insulting to teachers or el ed majors. I believe a degree is meaningful. It’s just NOT very meaningful with regard to making you qualified to teach a handful of young kids. And parents generally have at least as much of “a clue” as the teachers do.
And here’s the rub, when you pull your kids out–even mid-year–nothing happens. The world doesn’t end. The brain doesn’t turn to mush. The walls don’t collapse. EVEN IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU’RE DOING.
The truth is, if you pulled all your kids out tomorrow (even high school ones), took them to the library and helped them select some great reading, and just let them READ all day for a few weeks until you COULD figure out what you were doing–they would probably learn MORE than in those same weeks in school.
I care a great deal about parents taking back the power and responsibility of educating their kids. I do NOT care if they homeschool or use any other combination of things that truly works for the children and the parents. (That is one of the points of the 7 Habits talk/book.) But so many of the objections and concerns really have no basis in fact.
Let me put it to you this way. If there were no public schools and three private schools in your city that were generally the same–one that taught gay marriage diversity classes and sex ed to kindergartens and two that didn’t–which would you choose? More to the point, if YOUR school started doing read alouds like “Heather Has Two Mommies,” and refused to so much as tell you about it, would you stay there?
Alison, to be honest, to me education is not just about avoiding hard or even immoral teachings. Honestly, I would look at the schools as a whole, look at what made sense, consider what felt right. I just don’t see this as THE deciding issue for what to do about it. And I don’t think it should be. I think such an approach can encourage panic and REaction instead of people doing what actually makes sense given their know-how, financial and other resources, etc.
Don’t get me wrong. Watching that video made me cry and made me feel sick. Even as I have been expressing my concern about parental rights in various places, using that man’s story as an example, seeing it in that video hit me hard.
But I feel differently about this than I have. I feel less panicked and less willing to just think that pulling out of school is our only option. I think I’m going to write a post on what has sort of distilled for me the past few days on this issue. Maybe it will help you understand more of where I am coming from.
Alison,
Not that it’s a big deal, but that was a whispered response so others aren’t going to know what you are responding to. 🙂
I care a great deal about parents taking back the power and responsibility of educating their kids.
I know you do. And I think more parents should be thinking more about this rather than sending their kids off and not really thinking twice about it.
But to me you seem to leap to conclusions that choosing public school isn’t a good choice, period. And I think that isn’t fair. Parents can have power and responsibility in the process of their kids’ education and still choose public school. You may not agree with that choice, but it still is a choice, and I think there needs to be a little more room for it to be considered a valid one that informed and concerned and involved and responsible parents can make.
I’ve had too many conversations with people who want to make anti-public-school sentiment doctrine. And it feels a bit like you are doing that here. 🙂 But I’ll edit and add that I may very well be overreacting because of bad experiences I have had with this kind of conversation before, where I have had to work really hard to try to help people see that it is possible to choose public school and still be a good LDS person. 🙂
Oh, flip! I didn’t even see that! Usually the whispers are colored, but I didn’t even see a difference. I am SOOOO sorry!
Really, it’s ok. I think I’ll pull it out so that people know what you are responding to. 🙂
There was a little mixup with one of my comments, and so I wanted to include what I wrote so you can know what Alison was responding to above (when she was asking about my thoughts about being reactive).
I have thought about this a lot lately, and I think I would definitely consider homeschooling if I lived in CA, but this one issue to me is not necessarily reason to pull them out.
I’m NOT criticizing those who do pull their kids out. And I won’t blame people if they do, esp in CA. And what happens there very likely will affect us here because I think that a lot of curriculum comes from there.
But here’s the thing. Is it really good for parents to pull their kids out in a REACTIVE way just because of something like this? Is that always going to be what is best for the kids? Some parents don’t have a clue about how to teach or what to teach or don’t have the money for private school or whatever. Just telling people to pull kids out to me is not wise.
In a rough way, it’s like the markets. If you pull out in a panic and not because you are smart and know what you are doing, you could end up causing yourself (and maybe even the system) more problems.
I am coming to feel that the most important thing is not what we do in relation to the schools, but how we prepare our kids spiritually. And there are many ways to prepare and provide protection from them. Taking kids out of public school is not the only way to keep them safe.
These are just my thoughts right now. I may change my mind over time, though. We still have yet to see how this will all pan out.
But I’m not, or my kids wouldn’t be there, right?
However, I DO think there ARE schools in American that no parent should put up with, least of all an LDS parent. And I am asking–I sincerely don’t know how to be more clear–for parents to DETERMINE what THEIR standard for education is. Rather than be dictated to by the NEA, the school board, the teacher–I’m asking PARENTS to take responsibility for this decision AND to actually take action–to pull their kids out–when the school no longer meets it.
Instead, as I keep saying, the bar just keeps dropping. Well, no prayer isn’t so bad. Well, no dress standard isn’t so bad. Well, bullying isn’t so bad. Well, drugs aren’t so bad. Well, bad language isn’t so bad. Well, dirty dancing isn’t so bad. Well, immodestly isn’t so bad. Well, falling test scores aren’t so bad. Well, wasted time isn’t so bad. Well, gangs aren’t so bad. Well, diversity training isn’t so bad. Well, political indoctrination isn’t so bad. Well, fondling in the hall isn’t so bad. Well, 36 hours PER YEAR of forced commercial watching isn’t so bad. Well, condoms on bananas aren’t so bad.
ONLY if they also consider other options. There is no “choice” with only one option!
Of course you would. I have never suggested that normalizing gay marriage is the ONLY issue. Do you really believe that I’m saying that you should pick a school with NO diversity training–even if the halls are boobytrapped?
But there is a REASON I said that, other than the normalization of homosexuality, the schools were “generally the same.” The reason is, given schools that are “generally the same” most LDS parents WILL consider the normalizing of homosexuality to be seriously consequential. But when one school is the free school with bus transportation and the other is NOT–those “seriously consequential” things just become another thing on the “Well, it’s not so bad” list. Because trying to move outside of them is too hard and too uncertain. So it is TOLERATED, again.
So, again, here is my question. Where is the line for you (collective you)? Can I assume none of you would tolerate booby-trapped halls? Is that the ONLY thing that would convince you to give up the bus route?
FWIW, when you homeschool you get comments ALL the time, from just about everyone. I’m sure some other homeschoolers here can add some, but here are the ones I hear most often.
Wow, that’s great. I could never do that. Doesn’t it take a lot of time?
I don’t have the patience to homeschool.
I’m not good enough at math/science to do that.
How can you stand to be with your kids all day?
I thought about it, but I like my freedom!
I need “my time” when the kids are gone.
My house would never get clean if my kids were running around all day.
When the kids go to school it’s “me time.” I’d go insane without it.
Surprisingly (at least to me!), people say these things ALL the time with no qualms at all. All. the. time. (The last one came from a woman who serves as a stake Primary president.) So, seriously, how many of these statements aren’t at least partly about convenience???
Just add to that all the women’s magazine articles. Watch the stands at the end and beginning of the school year. “How to Survive the Summer with Your Kids.” “Hooray! It’s Finally School Time!” Come on, passing off responsibility for education is part of our culture–and it’s what has put, and keeps–the NEA in power.
You must be soooo organized.
How can you teach them all of the subjects?
Are you excited for school to start…oh, wait….
Actually, Alison, I think you covered it pretty well. My favorite comments are about “socialization”, but that’s not what you’re talking about.
Oh, there was one other one: “Hey! It’s free babysitting!”
Thanks, Kristen.
As for aspects of concern in schools, here is another.
In California, they use “Jesse’s Dream Skirt” for “tolerance” training form K-3. Here is a the description written by Focus on the Family:
Would this kind of thing bother you enough?
I get it, Alison. I agree that parents should be involved and informed. Just understand that some of what I’m responding to is not just YOUR comments or point of view but the extreme ‘other side’ that I have gotten too often.
Like the time my friend basically declared that the children of those who don’t homeschool will go to hell. “We’ll see” who’s more righteous was her position. I still can’t believe it.
Or the people who insist that because prophets nearly 150 years ago talked about using church schools before public schools became the norm that somehow we are living in sin by choosing public school. How not being in public school is the higher law.
Some of those statements you quote may be about convenience. Or maybe it’s more complicated than that for some people. I know it is for me.
At some point, we have to trust each other a little. Not all homeschoolers are crazy people, and not all public schoolers are lazy people. 🙂
Alison, I think I see what you are getting at. Let me try this from a different angle to see if I’m understanding correctly.
We didn’t know about homeschooling, really, until my oldest was 1 year old and we had some families in our ward that were homeschooling their children. We were really impressed with their kids. so I started to do my research, reading all that I could about homeschooling, education, learning, etc. It really appealed to us especially because my husband had had such a difficult time in public school and really didn’t like school until he got to college. He was continually bored in most of his classes due to a number of factors and rarely got good grades because he didn’t do the busy work while getting A’s on the tests. We knew that our children would most likely face similar challenges, so we are homeschooling. I’m open to other alternatives, but we’re currently poor college students who don’t know where we are going to end up and if I end up having to homeschool, I don’t want to get out of the groove, so to speak.
My point is that the reasons to consider alternative education don’t have to be moral ones, they can also be academic ones.
Here’s another thought. I’ve recently read a book that talked about the possible reasons so many young men seem to be failing/aimless in our society. One of the factors cited in the book dealt with the early academics (reading and writing) starting in kindergarten. Many boys are not developmentally ready for learning reading and writing at the age of 5 and so can start out school thinking they are dumb and eventually hate school or any type of learning. Just the difference of waiting until a boy is 6 years old to start him in kindergarten instead of holding him back another year in kindergarten, according to the research, helps boys succeed better and enjoy school more. But how many parents even know about that, especially when it’s their first child and have no experience with their school system? I think most parents just stick their kids in school and trust that it will work for their children because it worked for them, even though school environments have changed dramatically since most of them were in school.
Sidenote: The above book is a fascinating read and I think it’s an important book to read if you are raising boys.
Would this kind of thing bother you enough?
Enough to what? 🙂
Don’t see how you can’t see that this kind of thing can get to be tiresome? You know I love you, girl, but I feel like you are trying to corner me. And throwing hypotheticals at me at some point is pointless. I am making decisions based on my reality, and that’s all I can get revelation for. And I will continue to try to do what I think is best considering ALL facets of our life, not just negative things I don’t like at the schools.
I agree that there are places it’s bad. I am not saying I like it or agree with it or think that parents should just roll over and take it or anything of the sort. Help me know what you are looking for here, because it’s like you think I don’t care or understand or something. Or something that I can’t quite figure out.
:bigsmile:
I actually have some authoritative sources to back that up. :devil:
On this we totally agree. I’ve heard this same inane assertion and argued against it for years. It’s like demanding that Brigham Young’s Retrenchment Society provide the dress standard for LDS women–even though none of our female leaders wear dresses to the floor and sleeve to the wrist.
Sure it is, but convenience is such an issue that it’s astounding to me.
When we decided to move, Lindon city told us that we could choose either Pleasant Grover or Timpanogos. We checked out both schools, the academic records (although we rarely take academic classes, it still makes a difference in the scholarship and tone of the school), the class offerings, the teacher reputations, the student issues (almost universally we heard, “PG has problems with drugs and teen pregnancy; Timp has problems with cliques”). Then we checked out the performing arts programs, because those are of particular interest to my kids. Ultimately we chose Timp.
Do you know what comment I get most often, by far?
“Why do you go to Timp? The busses in Lindon only go to PG!”
Like I said, Michelle, it’s a collective you. It’s not YOU. I’m trying to get people to THINK. If you’re tired of thinking, I’m not going to make you. 😎
Let me clarify. If ANYONE in the 1960’s had said, “Well, in 40 years the schools will be teaching your kids that they must accept homosexuality.” NO regular parent would have believed it. No way. No how. It was too absurd. Too over the top. We would never go there. We would never allow it.
Today that’s exactly what’s here and, because the move has been incremental, it’s just “not such a big deal.” And most people are still tolerating it. It’s the whole frog in the pan of water thing.
Where will this go from here? History shows that the trend is downward. If you don’t think Jesse’s Dress is a big deal or Heather’s Two Mommies or whatever that book in the clip above–what IS a big deal? Is there anything that will be “the last straw”? Or is everything OK, as long as we move there a bit at a time. It’s really a beard fallacy, while we all pretend that no matter how many whiskers we add, it never REALLY becomes a beard, because it wasn’t just a minute ago.
Oh, absolutely! We did NOT begin homeschooling for religious/moral reasons. We did it only for academic reasons. Maybe a bit for social reasons, but that was really peripheral. We still wouldn’t pull our kids for moral reasons in most schools here. But it is the moral decline that I would like people to look squarely at given all that is going on.
And, again, I don’t believe that a “public school only” track has EVER given a reasonable approximation of a superb education. You can only get that with CHOICES.
I’ll back Alison up on this one. I think one of her statements on a homeschool support group when I first started homeschooling helped me recognize that homeschooling is not the one and only choice for righteous education. Thanks, Alison. 🙂
Amy, I could hug you!
“Amy, I could hug you!”
But what message would that send to our kids? 😉
Alison said:
Sorry, but this is just another example of the kind of sleazy political half-truth used by win-at-any-cost Prop-8 supporters, but perhaps we must expect this in a campaign such as this. This is one reason I wish the Church hadn ?t gotten involved. I was recently led to understanding that Church leaders were going to instruct the local leaders and members to rely only on the Marriage Proclamation, the Oaks-Wickman Interview, and the Divine Institution of Marriage document, and not to circulate garbage like this from the radical Christian right.
The video gives the impression that the school was forcing a religious doctrine down the Parkers ? throats. David tells (with well-rehearsed tears in his eyes, and a tinkling piano background) of being hauled off to jail. ? He never says why, but we ?re led to believe it is because he disagrees with gay marriage. In fact, if you read the Boston Globe account of this incident you learn that Parker marched down to the school and demanded the school agree to his interpretation of the law, and when they refused to be bullied, he refused to leave the school premises. School officials and the police urged him for more than two hours to leave voluntarily and when he would not, finally arrested him for trespassing. Parker refused to bail himself out of jail and said he spent the night in jail to prove a point. ?
The school committee chairman said: We don’t view telling a child that there is a family out there with two mommies as teaching about homosexuality, heterosexuality, or any kind of sexuality. We are teaching about the realities of where different children come from. ?
This is the sort of thing I wish our Church would stay away from. It is one thing to honestly and correctly state the facts of the Parker case; it is quite another to provide half-truths designed to give false impressions, which is what I saw as the purpose of this video, and your comments on this blog post.
HA! Such a brat.
Excellent point, Ray! :shocked: :rolling:
Welcome, Matt. Glad to have new voices here.
“Sleazy political half-trutth”? We all knew he got arrested for refusing to leave. It’s been discussed in this thread. Yes, I could have been clearer in my initial statement, but we all knew that he was arrested for refusing to leave–their refusal to notify him and address the issue being the REASON he would not leave.
Now THAT is “a sleazy politically correct half-truth.”
The “reality” is that some children come from rape and incest, some are abused horribly, some adults have sex with children, some people get off on animals, some kids are sold into sexual slavery, some cultures cut off female sexual pleasure organs, some couples swing, some like orgies, some have sex with strangers in bathrooms, some babies are burned alive in the womb, some babies are stabbed to death in the womb, some babies are abandoned in garbage cans…
The question has never been what’s REAL. It’s what is APPROPRIATE to present to KINDERGARTENERS as regular and normal and acceptable.
And, the TRUTH is, that these curricular materials present homosexual couples as being normal and acceptable. To suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest. For heaven’s sake–WHY are they using resources to promote “diversity education” if it does NOT accomplish this goal? That is the POINT of this curriculum! To show that “all different families” are normal–not weird, not deviant, not a problem. “Just like you and me.”
Sincerely, this oft-repeated party line is the most ludicrous and illogical defense. We NEED “diversity education” so that no one is left out, no one feels bad, no one feels rejected, no one is seen as different. Yet, “diversity education” does NOT teach that “differences” are acceptable.
Wow.
As I think you’ve heard me say before, the position that teaching particulars of “coupleness” does NOT teach appropriate sexuality is erroneous. True, I do not discuss the specifics of sexual intercourse with my five-year-olds much (we do so, generally, at eight), but they do learn very young that there is a difference between “couples” and “non-couples.” Even my little kids know that while I love my father, it’s not the same as they way I love my husband. And they know the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship. And, obviously, when they DO learn the specifics of sex, they APPLY that new knowledge to whatever they have learned in the past about what normal couples are. And if they have been taught that “normal” couples can be any kind of gender mix, that’s what they apply it to.
This is exactly the sort of thing the church is for.
Matt: Does the (very liberal) Boston Globe have a reputation for being fair and balanced when reporting on those who oppose the gay marriage agenda? Who wrote the article?
I agree that home schooling is not the only way to keep kids spiritually safe. It has more to do with the spirit in the home than where they go to school. But it does help a lot because it shelters them a bit when they are most impressionable. (Not that I think they should be “sheltered”, but I’d rather they heard my view of things before they hear someone else’s.) They form their opinions at home, which can be good or bad, but we hope it is good, and then go out to face the world. That was not well said. Sorry, I’m in a hurry and sick.
Can you tell me what those cards say on the back (or front). I like the picture. I am considering doing the post card thing, so let me know. Did you design it and where are they made?
Believe you me, I do understand the benefits of homeschooling. I think I said somewhere up there that I have considered it. But for us right now it’s just not right. But I take the approach of telling my kids early and openly about things for the reason you mention…so they can hear it first and clearly from me.
For example, my kids (ages 9,8,7) all know that I’ve been making phone calls for prop 8 and they know what it’s all about. I started talking to them about this issue before prop 8, though. Some people won’t agree with me, but I feel that they are receptive to the gospel right now, and receptive to my teaching and so I teach boldly and repeatedly about the doctrines that can anchor them.
The cards as they are right now are blank, and that is one reason why I wasn’t going to use them. But it would really be easy to add words. I created them online at overnightprints.com
What would do you think the postcards should say?
Oh, and if you haven’t seen the brochures, here’s a link to something similar:
http://protectmarriage.com/files/fact_sheet.pdf
I’m sorry to hear you are sick. Are you overdoing? I can relate!
To Matt,
Just wanted to point out that the Church hasn’t endorsed this video. We here have shared it, but we don’t represent the Church.
And I agree with Alison; we know the story, and still, we find it concerning. In my mind, if parents are able to opt their children out of saying the pledge of allegiance because it says “God” in it, or if parents are able to stop entire schools and districts from singing religious Christmas songs, why should parents not have the right to opt their children out of elements of curriculum that violate their religious beliefs and expose their children to things they don’t believe in morally or religiously? Should the government and the public school system really have that much power and influence? We are giving parents rights to take God and religious beliefs out of schools, but not allowing those with religious beliefs to protect their children from what they believe is morally wrong. That’s completely upside down.
I think those who don’t acknowledge that this sort of thing COULD be a problem and that some schools already ARE forcing liberal propaganda on children without parental notification and potential for involvement or mitigation, are really just ignoring reality and engaging in denial if not outright deception. None of us fully knows how all of this will unfold if gay marriage becomes legal, but seriously, people who support gay marriage need to be a little more willing to acknowledge that there COULD be problems.
And, as the Divine Institution of Marriage says,
.
I think it’s foolish to deny that this also might happen through people in the schools. “It’s legal, therefore we can teach it.” That kind of attitude can affect both parental and taxpayer rights. And that concerns me greatly.
And even if you don’t like this video, the Church has officially expressed concerns about school curricula, so it’s still on the table officially anyway. You balk at the video, but the core concern is consistent with our leaders’ concerns.
BTW, the core message and concern from this story is not his arrest anyway, but the school’s initial refusal to let the parents be informed when things that violate their religious and moral standards was taught. This is a threat to parental rights and possibly to taxpayer rights. (Paying taxes to me suggests that i am a stakeholder in the curriculum; I should have a say. But I am concerned that this issue will be off the table for any input in many places if gay marriage is legalized.)
I think the stress of the election, the bailout, Prop 8 and everything caught up with me. I’ll go look at the postcards.
Nicely explained, mlinford. Alison, thank you for putting this up for discussion and for discussing it. Matt, thank you for giving us (mostly Alison and mlinford) a chance to address your angle. Frankly, even if Parker did “march” and “refuse” vehemently instead of meekly, which may or may be the case, I agree with mlinford that “the core message and concern from this story is not his arrest anyway.”
You can’t say much on a postcard and you want it read before it is tossed….the amendment itself is very short. Would that be enough or do we need to point out that nothing will change in Calfornia law regarding same sex couples’ rights?
By the way, Parker was only cited for trespassing. Had there been anything else to cite him for (assault, for example, where all that is required is threatening speech, not action) he would have been cited.
AMEN!! The whole POINT of those kinds of books and that kind of instruction is to get the kids to ACCEPT homosexuality as normal and healthy from a very young age. And discussing that kind of thing with such young kids is entirely inappropriate. I don’t want anyone teaching that stuff to my 14 year old, much less my 5 year old.
That is what I have been wondering about. I think it’s good to have some explanation, but what to include and how much is the key. I think the fact that the law already protects rights is important (some people aren’t aware of that). I also think the children/curriculum thing is, too.
The explanation factor is why I was heading in the direction of using what already exists.
But I’m open to your thoughts and we can have the postcard say whatever we want.
BTW, there is a broadcast tonite and there is a satellite feed being sent to Provo. I’m going…I’ll report. 🙂
Yup.
What’s really funny about this statement is that children do NOT “come from” families with two mommies!
Guess I want to toss this in for consideration. I am really pleased with our local elementary school. I am thrilled to have my kids there. The principal is a friendly man who says the kids in his school are like his own grandkids to him, and he treats them accordingly. He is kind and patient and firm, forward-thinking, and totally committed to them–really a positive, happy man. The teachers are good and conscientious adults, and many of them are LDS. They make learning fun, purposeful, and thorough. The one teacher I had problems with isn’t there this year. This morning we had a “Walk to Breakfast” morning. The principal invited parents to walk to school with their kids and have a free breakfast with them. I am ashamed to admit, I thought it was some kind of cover-up. I thought they were going to haul us into the gym after breakfast and lecture us about something–and they didn’t. They just wanted kids to have a positive experience with their parents.
I am less thrilled with our middle school, but I am impressed that a few years ago, 90% of the kids were on the HONOR ROLL. It was a big deal and made it to the local newspapers. They are pretty committed to excellence, but I don’t especially like their people skills. Oh well. You aren’t gonna like every teacher or principal you meet.
Today I am really happy with the education our daughter is getting at our high school. They offer a class called simply “Parenting.” I had to sign a form to allow my sixteen year-old daughter to participate in this class. So far, they’ve studied the reproductive system and how babies come to be. They’ve studied growth patterns of babies and talked ALOT about how to deal with a newborn. They have also studied about the different methods of birth control available. Everything is kept on a high plane. I asked my daughter if the discussion matter made her uncomfortable, and she said no, the woman who teaches the class is LDS and handles the subject tastefully. Get this: today my daughter became the mother of an eight-pound plastic baby girl with an internal computer. She will have this baby for three days and three nights. At intervals, the baby cries. She has to guess what the problem is and try to fix it. Sometimes it needs its diaper changed, or it needs to be fed a bottle, or it needs to be burped, or sometimes it just needs to be held and rocked. If she handles it correctly, the baby quits crying. She takes it with her everywhere it goes, even to her school classes, in an actual car seat. (The principal approved this.) She had to come up with clothes and a blanket for the baby, (which we bought at D.I.) If she doesn’t take proper care of the baby, its cries get progressively louder, and the computer records it. She will be graded on how much and how long the baby cries! My daughter has spent all afternoon giving me lectures about how to take care of a newborn baby! She is sitting on the couch now, holding her realistic-looking baby wrapped in a small flannel blanket with a crocheted lace edging, and she looks beautiful and peaceful. This is a taste of what motherhood will be, at least a little bit, and I can’t think of a finer education for her.
The babies cost upwards of $250 apiece, and the school has only been able to buy six of them, so it is quite a privilege to get this opportunity.
Now that’s an education I can approve.
I guess we’re about twenty years behind in worldliness here in little old podunk Idaho. I’m glad.
I didn’t know it would be in Provo. I’d love a report.
Wow, I am certainly glad that you don’t get a grade on that in real life! I pretty sure I would not have passed!
Seriously though I have really enjoyed this thread. I liked hearing all the different opinions and experiences in education. I was going to write about our experience with public schools and homeschooling but will stop tonight and hopefully write it tomorrow.
shanant, I was thinking the same thing! Particularly with a couple of my kids!
Still, I think those exercises can be pretty good. They have a similar class at our high school, although most of the year is psychobabble and my daughter thought it not worth wading through all that to get to the baby experiment. Being second to the oldest, she also has a lot of experience with real babies! We did a similar thing at BYU, but it was much more low-tech. We had to carry an egg around for a week. If it broke, we failed.
Anyway, shanant, I look forward to hearing your experiences, too.
AMAZING! I can’t write now, but check out preservingmarriage.org
The Spirit was SO strong. So strong. The building was PACKED. I had to park two streets over and walk. It was sitting room only. We sang ‘We are All Enlisted.”
I tell you, this is a big deal. HUGE. Not that I didn’t feel it before but I REALLY feel it now.
A friend just sent me this link. The timing was too perfect. So here’s a little comic relief related to our discussion here.
(I’d suggest checking it out first before letting littler kids see it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auW48neHdsM
Thanks, face. I needed a laugh.
face, That was funny! It made me think of the Magic School Bus episode that explains the same thing with roosters and hens!
Alison, Here is my answer to what it would take to pull my kids out of school.
I was already considering homeschooling for my oldest for the Jr. High years because of the extreme overcrowding at our assigned Jr. High. She does not do well in a large class (she had between 34-37 kids in her class in 5th grade so I knew that large of a class did not work). So homeschooling was a alternative in our minds.
She also gets colds and the flu a little bit more frequently and it usually hits her a little harder. We had her tested and she was fine and healthy in-between so it’s just something she has to deal with.
When she started her 6th grade year she got a teacher that was “famous” for giving too much homework. I went and talked to the teacher as soon as I knew she was in her class and asked her to work with us when my daughter was sick. She said she would.
Well her definition of working with us was basically the opposite of what I would call it. The first time my daughter was sick she got all her make-up work done in the time the teacher had asked and tried to turn it in. The teacher told her she, the student, had to correct her own make-up work in her spare time. (There was no spare time in this class they were on task every minute and everyone came home with 1-3+ hours of homework). I told my daughter I would help her correct the pages the next week (I was the PTA President that year and during that week was running the Book Fair.) Before I could get in to talk to the teacher she gave her zeros for all of her makeup work.
(Now, many of you may wonder why I did not make a big stink and try and take care of the problem. I have wondered if that is what I should have done, however in my defense there was an extremely difficult problem happening with one of the PTA programs and everyone who was involved felt like we were back in a Jr. High cat fight! It took up far too much of my emotional energy at that time. Also the teacher (who I really liked as a person) was very sweet to adults and said “most” everything you wanted to hear so it was very hard to pin her down. We had a new principal that was not a solution maker, she could have made the problem much worse.)
Anyway the teacher also told the students they should not have any homework which made my daughter fell like she was doing something wrong. So it was causing self esteem problems too. (she also had very bad headaches and stomach aches partly caused by stress and partly caused by being too busy with homework and her music practice to exercise.
I pulled her out for half a day 1/3 of the way into school and she did dual-enrollment. The next time she was sick I was able to correct her make-up work. The third time she was sick there were extra pages to correct because they correct on Friday and the teacher had missed the Friday before. So she would have had about 16 pages I would have had to correct so she could get credit for them. I pulled her all they way out then right before the last trimester. If I was going to be correcting her work we would do pages I chose.
I homeschooled her for her 7th grade year and this year my 9 and 10 year joined us. We did it mostly because we wanted to be able to do more as a family and not have our day chopped up by the school schedule (our elementary here starts at 9:05 and ends at 3:45 so they didn’t get home until after 4) The 9 year old was still really loving school but wanted to be with us. He loves that he can be done with “school” work in a couple of hours and have the rest of the time to himself! The 10 year old is very small for her age and was starting to get picked on. She spent 2nd to 4th grade sneaking a book in her desk all day long and that is basically what she does at home now. Read all day long! And it is such a hard thing to ground her from!
Anyway, I would say the biggest thing we have gained from homeschooling is time to be together as a family. Something that was getting rarer and rarer the older they got when they were in public school. We gained more than that and I may post some more but I need to get everyone to bed now!
This is my BIGGEST beef with school– public OR private. It irritates me to the core that kids are in school for 7 HOURS, then have to come home and do MORE work.
It makes me want to scream… “HELLO??? You’ve had them for 7 HOURS!!! Now they have to come home and work MORE? Another 2-3 hours of homework? My 40 year old HUSBAND doesn’t even have that long of a work day! But you want my 11 year old to have 9-10 hour work day?? ”
It makes me batty. This was what I LOVED about homeschooling. 3-4 hours and we were DONE! They had the whole rest of the day to run, play, go to the library, to the park, on a ”field trip”, be on the soccer team, go to dance classes, etc. Be a KID instead of having a LONGER schedule than the average working adult.
I humbly admit that I reconsider homeschooling frequently. What holds me back is that the kids are doing SO well. There’s something about the classroom of kids, the competition and “postive peer pressure” to do well, and someone other than me being the teacher that really works with my kids, especially my son.
It would be an interesting to see if homeschooling would go better now– now that they HAVE been in public and private school and have that model of what institutionalized schooling is–also since they’re older. It started out so great but after the first 4 years it really took a turn and James especially was suffering educationally– and we were getting ready to kill each other. Not a good thing. 🙂 There were IMMEDIATE positive results when he got into school. That downward spiral turned right around and he excelled. He went BACK to the way it was in the first few years of our homeschooling when he was doing SO well.
So right now– with things going as they are, I hesitate to “fix what ain’t broke”.
It’s certainly possible that we could end up homeschooling anyway– he’s supposed to go to high school next year. And if we can’t sell the house we’re going to be stuck. He’s not going to the local public high school- no way, no how. But the private Catholic high school adds a few more thousands to the price. So scholarships would be absolutely essential. And I imagine there’s a lot more competition for scholarships at that level. If we’re still here and we can’t get scholarships, or get ENOUGH in scholarships, then we’ll be homeschooling.
shanant, I loved your post. NOT because you are homeschooling (which we all know is “the only righteous way to education” :wink::shocked::wink::shocked::wink::wink::shocked::wink:), but because even as the PTA president (obviously a very involved, dedicated parent) you were willing to look critically at what was happening with your children and CONSIDER other ways to better meet there needs.
To me it is being open to all the many really great ways to educate and not being locked into the idea that public school is the appropriate, patriotic, reasoned, moderate choice–we find a whole new world out of the box.
You, too, Tracy. You are looking for what works best. If that IS public school, more power to you! You’re only making a CHOICE if you actually have some. And you do!
I had an interesting parent teacher conf. yesterday with my 6 year olds teacher. He has been acting up, making wierd noises, and generally being a pain in the patookie when it comes to doing Math. I asked her when it is during the day that they do mat, and she said it was right after lunch. Because he was in 1/2 day K last year, I wonder if he is so used to going home at that time, that he just can’t buckle down inthe afternoon. He does math just fine for me and Joe here at home, and loves to read. She says that he is in danger of being held back for next year. I am thinking perhaps we need to pull him out to let him have some more one on one time, and that this may be the answer.
FWIW, my DH says that they may only have 28 days left in school anyway, since if Prop 8 fails, he will not have them in the public school system. LOL. He dropped that bomb on me yesterday, and has me researching HS again.
I guess we shall see. I love the concept of HS, I was taught by my mom until 5th grade, and loved it. Thankfully, because we have a great ward, and lots of stuff for kids to do in our town, I have no worries about the dreaded “socialization” issue that people tend to throw at Homeschoolers. (that was totally tongue in cheek!)
Hey kiar!!! Where ‘ya been, woman?
Just last Friday, I took this AWESOME class at a teacher development and training meeting the Diocese had for all the early ed teachers.
It was all about the brain and how it works in the learning process. It was taught by a neuro- something something scientist and doctor (I can’t remember the name of his actual field– live with it. :tongue: 🙂
One of the things he talked about was how schools PUSH kids to learn too much, too soon, for too long a time during the day.
He showed all the data from the latest research, some of which just came out 6 months ago and he was a part of. He said the 2 worst things that have happened in the education system are preschool and all day Kindergarten, and that every study has the same results. And Kiar, one of the things he hit on was the complete ineffectiveness of trying to teach 5-6 year olds past 1 or 2 in the afternoon ESPECIALLY if they aren’t taking a nap.
The following info will be from my notes– maybe a little long but fascinating! (Some of this you might remember from school– I recognized alot of it from discussions with the researchers of Sara’s sydrome, but this guy went into a lot more detail)
First, he explained that the neurons of the brain are the brain cells that regulate thinking. They communicate electrochemically through protein tubes. which connect axons and dentrites. Dentrites surround and grow out around the brain cells and is where information is stored. More dentrites grow and we learn and experience more. The three ways to cause growth of dentrites is movement, strong emotional reactions and exposure to new information/stimulus. But the FASTEST way is through movement. (Which is the exact OPPOSITE of what happens when you’re just sitting in a chair.) He talked about this study they did of babies who’s parents essentially have them in a swing or detachable carseat most of the day and how much SLOWER they develop cognitively and how CRUCIAL it is for babies to have freedom to move, tummy time, etc. He said most conscientious parents KNOW that babies need to have tummy time, that they learn more, but that they don’t necessarily know HOW that works, WHY it works, and it’s the MOVEMENT that causes dentrites to grow.
We’ve all heard how the first 3 years are so crucial– and THIS is why. New connection or synaptic tubes are formed at a rate of 3 billion a second. BUT the brain has most neural networks it will every have at the age of 5 or so. After that our brain starts to “prune” those dentrite networks and does so for the rest of our lives.
Myelin is the fatty caoting that protects and makes neural networks efficient– it sort of works like the rubbery sheathing around electric wires, the cord to your hair dryer, etc.
(As a side note– its a LACK of this myelin that’s the cause of Sara’s mental retardation)
Myelin begins to grow at the back of the brain and moves forward. As it covers the different areas of the brain the child begins to learn and store information in that part of the brain.
But the rate of the development of myelin depends on the rate of the child’s physical maturation. Most children mature physcially around the same age– that’s why they start crawling around a certain age, start talking around a certain age, etc. Because the myelin has started to grow around that area of the brain and the neurons are able to do their communicating, the synapses can start storing info, etc.
BUT, continuous processing in an area of the brain that does NOT have myelin yet causes the hippocampus (in charge of all inpurt and output) to shrink and can actually cause learning disabilities. He showed all this data from research– kids that were pushed to potty train before they were ready, (which he said happens frequently with parents who want to put their kids in preschool and the preschool requires kids to be pottytrained) kids pushed to start writing too early, etc– and how they continue to have problems their entire lives.
He showed this chart of literacy rates and educational data from different countries and how poorly America is doing compared to other countries and how there’s a DIRECT CORRELATION between the time that Americans started sending their kids to preschool (esp. all day preschool)
and all day Kindergarten and the drop in literacy and academic scores. Other countries WAIT until kids are older to start formal education.
Then he talked about the hormones released in the brain. Seratonin is the hormone most needed for learning and retention. It’s released when a child is physcially active, has positive social contact, is exposed to sunlight, feels safe or has an absence of threat– which all contributes to a great learning environment both physically and emotionally. Then, when the child achieves and accomplishes something, does well, receives praise,etc Dopamine is released. Dopamine is always followed by MORE Seratonin– and so the cycle goes.
Cortisol is the WORST hormone for learning and retention and actually SLOWS learning, ability to focus, etc. Cortisol comes from increased feelings of pressure to perform, confusion, mistrust, risk of loosing status or approval, uncertainty and stress.
(So you have a kid who’s being pushed to potty-train and isn’t ready and has accidents, is embarassed, or Mom gets mad/frustrated, etc– or a kid who’s in a preschool or kindergarten class who’s behind the other kids developmentally, doesn’t have the motor skills to trace letters and write his name, teacher gets frustrated, parents get frustrated, he notices other kids can do it and he can’t—- massive Cortisol dump everytime.) But Cortisol prevents learning and blocks processing.
He also talked about the NEED for sleep or at LEAST quiet rest in younger children.
At 4-5 years old, Cortisol levels are elevated to significant levels that dramatically decrease learning ability within 4 hours in a school environment. (competition and disagreements with other kids, pressure to perform, discomfort from being expected to behave, be quiet, pay attention, etc) 6 -7 years old the time increases to 5 hours. (That would explain your son not being able to focus after lunch.)
30-40 minutes of napping depeletes cortisol build up by 82%. And even just 30 minutes of quiet rest drops cortisol by 46%.
But he said that under the pressure to get kids to learn more and faster, many schools went to all day Kindergarten. 1st mistake. Then, to make matters worse, they’ve started eliminating naps. He said they just keep shooting themselves in the foot, and are doing everything wrong.
In an attempt to make kids “smarter, sooner” their making them learn less and are even causing them to develop learning disabilities. He said “you want a good catalyst for ADD symptoms? Try to potty-train a 2 year old, then stick them in preschool when they’re 3”
He talked about how frustrated he gets when he and other doctors are asked to speak to educators, administrators, elected officials about improving education, and his tells them all this stuff, shows them his presentation in even more detail and at the end they say, “Wow. This has been REALLY interesting. So how do we improve test scores?” :shocked:
As a side note– not really related but interesting, he said that the newest form of MRI called “functional MRI” has been found to be the ONLY way to accurately diagnose ADD/ADHD — they can SEE it on the MRI– there’s a difference in the brain, and that so far, they’re finding that the mass majority of ADD cases are NOT ADD.
That is really interesting research, face. It reminds me of one of the books written by the same author I referenced above. He talks about Finland, if I remember correctly and how they have the top test scores for children in the world and how, in part, compulsory education doesn’t start until age 7 there. He also talked about outdoor kindergarten classes somewhere in Europe, Germany, I think, where the children are outside all day in all types of weather throughout the year and how they had less incidence of learning disabilities, I think. I don’t have the books with me, but it sounds like some of what your class talked about. I’m becoming more and more convinced of delaying formal education for young children just because many are not ready for it yet.
I’ll have to check out that author and do some reading then, Amy. The whole thing was just fascinating. And his presentation was awesome because he had a slide show on power point with actual funcational MRI photos from real brains that showed the differences.
It was sort of frustrating, hearing him talk about all this and how he tells educators and legislators the same thing and just won’t listen- they find it interesting but obviously tune it out because they STILL want to know what they can do to improve test scores. They keep doing the exact opposite of what they need to do– like this whole push from key democrats to have compulsory preschool. They keep thinking, “we’re behind other countries, our kids are graduating from the 12th grade with a 9th grade education, so we have to start teaching them SOONER so we can get ahead.” But it’s the exact opposite. Their BEHIND because we push them too early.
He said he was convinced that the deluge of ADD diagnosis is because educators and parents are expecting too much and don’t understand the way the brain works. The reason kids get ancy (sp?) after lunch and can’t focus is because Cortisol levels are up so high. So the kid starts to not be able to focus, starts moving around in their chair, tapping their pencil, tapping their foot, chit-chatting with other kids and the teacher thinks “this kid is hyper” and the doctor was like– “No! He’s not hyper. But you’re right. He can’t focus. But not because he has ADD, it’s because his Cortisol levels are shooting through the roof.”
But the way our education system goes, everything is about getting them to do MORE, EARLIER. Now their talking about compulsory preschool and all we’re going to have is more misbehavior, more learning disabilities, more kids lagging behind in academic skills, etc.
Because instead of BACKING OFF, we pile more on. We take that kid who couldn’t quite get it in preschool (not because he’s stupid or ADD, but because his brain wasn’t biologically ready) and we push him on to Kindergarten. He stays behind all through Kindergarten and we push him on to 1st grade. He stays behind in 1st grade and we push him on…” and pretty soon you’ve got a 12th grader graduating with a 9th grade education.
This is all very interesting stuff. It seems like the pressure is more each year to get kids doing things early. I remember with my oldest in kindergarten (4 years ago), kindergarten was a pretty laid-back thing – 1/2 day, they did fun things, etc. My kindergartner that year could read, but it wasn’t because she was pushed to do so – she really just taught herself because she wanted to. She did attend preschool but only for 2 hours a day, 3 days a week, for one year.
Fast forward to my current kindergartner. She attended full-time preschool (9-2:30) the last 2 years because I was working. She is now in all day kindergarten (8:20 – 3:30…gets off the bus after 4:00). Her teacher is concerned that she didn’t come into school reading – but she’s really just never had any interest in it yet, and I’m not pushing it. She still insists that her name is spelled differently than it really is, lol. Anyway, she’s a happy-go-lucky kid who doesn’t really care about the academic side at the moment, and that’s fine with me.
The push for test scores really makes me mad. Last year my then-3rd grader had what they call the iLeap – it’s a preparation test for the Leap test, which is basically Lousiana standard testing…if you don’t pass the leap in 4th grade, you don’t pass 4th grade.
The WHOLE YEAR last year they studied for this test…or should I say they studied TO this test. I don’t think she learned anything else last year except how to take this test.
Interestingly, this same child (now in 4th grade) I was planning to homeschool this year – for academic reasons. She’s a really bright, self-motivated child and has always excelled in school. I knew if 3rd grade was wasted for the iLeap, 4th grade would probably be even worse for the Leap since it’s the one that counts.
However, long story, she’s in school. There are many reasons for that, and I do still hope to homeschool at some point. Right now it’s just not feasible for financial reasons.
This is because you need to work and not because you think home schooling has to be expensive, right?
Mainly because I need to work, and I’m hoping to go back to school for my master’s soon. I used to think that hs had to be expensive, but have been shown from friends that it really need not be – especially at elementary ages. I am a little worried about hs highschoolers though, as I feel they would need a lot more help in math and sciences than my husband or I could give. I have a friend who homeschools her highschoolers and pays for outside math and science courses…and they are not cheap. Hopefully by then we’d be a little more able to afford courses like that. My oldest is only 9.
Just so you can have it on your radar screen: There are some great tutorials out there too. Apologia has a fantastic science program; Teaching Textbooks has a great math program. It is nice to have someone in-house who knows what they’re doing, but you can do it without, if you have to. I also know a lady who never taught science as a separate curriculum but one of her sons grew up to be a physicist (sp?). She used the Noah Plan and was very disciplined, but they never “did science”. They did milk their own cows and make their own butter and bread, and she went walking with the other ladies in her co-op at 4 am.
I am a much more relaxed home schooler. I like Charlotte Mason and do a lot of “free-style”. My two oldest did/do* part-time public high school. They take what they want to take, like Russian, French, Weight-lifting, Drama, Music Theory…whatever they are interested in and we fill in the rest at home. You can’t do that in every state. If things get too crazy in public schools, co-ops may be the way to go for things that are more group oriented. We’ve done co-ops off and on, as we feel the need.
Anyway, I guess you can file that away for some other day. I wish you luck with the master’s. What will it be in? I did mine in English at BYU. It took me five years and three kids to finish, but it was worth it.
*The oldest is now in college.
I will definitely keep this in my “future homeschool” brain! Many of my friends homeschool and love it, it seems like they all just find their own way to do it and it works well for them. Some are very structured and others are more laid-back, but all of them seem to have a good experience with it most of the time.
My degree will be in some type of counseling – either social work, marriage/family therapy, or educational counseling. I’ve been wanting to do it for a long time but now seems like the right time since my youngest is in kindergarten. My only problem right now is that I don’t want to start a program in New Orleans (where I currently live) because I don’t want to stay here!! So I’m kind of looking into something that I could do mainly online – but that’s hard in a practical degree like therapy. I might just wait until we make our next move (hopefully next summer) and then I know we’ll be somewhere for a few years.
Face, thanks for the info. I need to read it a little more, and then I will get back to you! I threw out my back yesterday, and can’t sit or stand for too long before I start whimpering. I amvery interested in this. It would explain alot!!
Honey, I hope your back is going to be okay. I just know how much lifting, twisting, and bending you have done and will need to do as a momma. Wish I could be there to help you. I will pray.
Just got back from my Idaho gig this morning and wanted to thank you all for the interesting info. Tracy, great stuff you got there.
Angie, testing is a great topic. Over the years I’ve become convinced that they are only good for one thing, getting rabid public schoolers off your back–when your kids test way above theirs. :devil:
umm, if anyone was wondering if it wasn’t gonna happen, read the article below!
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/first-graders-taken-san-francisco/story.aspx?guid={BE66F84A-F38F-4858-9A7B-DF325F3AC9A0}&dist=hppr
Has anyone ever given permission for a schoolkid to go on a fieldtrip to a regular wedding of their teacher? And who has their wedding in the middle of the school day, unless they are trying to throw it in the faces of those who don’t agree?
Welcome to California! Arggg. I want to move.
Ah, Kiar, how sad. I wonder if the teacher had to receive permission slips from parents to attend the wedding, or if there was a way provided for kids and their families to opt out of that experience. I wonder if the parents knew ahead of time that it was going to happen.
In case you missed my “Boycott Google” discussion:
Google has announced that they are opposing California’s Prop 8
If you’d like to join in my “No on Google” campaign, stop searching on Google and they won’t get paid. There is information on other search engines below. Also, be sure to say good-bye to Google on the way out (url below). They need to know you are leaving and why.
Google representatives claim that the wording of the Proposition is ambiguous and that it will create increased government intervention in the lives of same-sex couples. Talk about twisting the truth.
The link Google provided to “Proposition 8” doesn’t take you to the text of Prop 8, it takes you to a propaganda page “about the proposition” (aka the Voter Information Guide) written by California’s gay Attorney General, Jerry Brown*. The text of the proposition, itself, is one sentence. It is not ambiguous. The passage of this proposition will not curtail any rights that same-sex couples currently have or create any further “government encroachment” on the rights of same-sex couples. On the contrary, it actually protects families and the institution of marriage from further “government encroachment”.
PROPOSITION 8
Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized
in California.
That’s it!
*Brown’s rewrite of the voter information guide piece was appealed because it
totally misrepresents the content, purpose and scope of the proposition; the
appeal was denied.
Info on other search engines here:
(I am currently trying out kartOO and Quintura, on different computers)
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/top_100_alternative_search_engines.php
You can say good-bye to Google here:
http://www.google.com/support/investors/
what butts! I will be saying bye-bye to them too!
Wow, kiar! That was fast! Thank you.
Lovely field trip, that.
Just wanted to report Belinda’s school day. She’s a senior. For her Food/Nutrition class they…watched an episode of The Magic School Bus traveling through the intestines. Then spent the better part of an hour playing blackjack.
Now THAT is education!
This is SOOOOO inappropriate that it’s absolutely mind boggling. You don’t take kids on a “field trip” to a wedding, period. And CERTAINLY not a “gay wedding”. How despicable can people possibly be???
See—this is what I was talking about earlier. It isn’t just the ideology that homosexuality is an acceptable practice or lifestyle that parents should be concerned about being taught in schools, it’s EVERYTHING else that will come along with it. This is indoctrination, not school teaching.
They had two families opt-out of the field trip, so I guess there were permission slips. Here’s the article. Still, I’ve never heard of a field trip for a teacher’s personal events.
One of the “brides” was on Fox just a minute ago. She said something to the effect of wanting all the school kids in America to rejoice in love–no matter who it is who loves.
I guess she missed the fact that its SEX, not love, that is at issue here?
Alison, it’s not sex that’s at issue – and it’s not love. She can have whatever “like unto it” sexual activity she wants already (and she can receive civil benefits for pledging to have it with only one other person), and she is free to love anyone whom she wants to love.
It’s about defining marriage, pure and simple. Nothing more, nothing less – no matter how those who support or oppose it wrap it up and package it. When someone on either side drifts away from that core issue, they simply are muddying the water and confusing the central issue.
Teachers Union Facts is an interesting web site. I haven’t read it all, so I’m not necessarily endorsing it all out, but I will say that if the NEA doesn’t give you pause, you probably have no idea what they are up to. Remember, the union is for teachers, NOT students. And you can more accurately read “teachers” as “people somehow connected to education who want money and power.”
So, just out of curiousity, has anyone besides Kiar noticed that google is officially opposing Prop 8?
I’ve noticed it, I’ve just been too busy with other stuff right now to look into other search engines. I don’t use google a whole lot…other than I have gmail. And there is no way I can change that at the moment.
I saw it Spande– I was just so into the other part of the conversation and was trying to participate in that, squeezing it in between subbing today, shopping, making dinner and FHE.
But I finally got to check out your links. What Google wrote was pretty lame and pathetic.
I also checked out readwriteweb– and had a hard time– I didn’t actually see a search engine anywhere. But I went to quintura.com and did a few searches and it worked perfectly fine.
So I dumped Google. Here’s my email to them:
“Since Google decided to announce it’s “position” on Prop 8 in California, I’ve decided to announce my position on Google. I won’t be using it as my search engine anymore and I’ve asked all my friends to join me, and asked them to ask their friends as well.
If prop 8 fails, then a million and one excuses will pop up for schools to indoctrinate children with the homosexual agenda as has already been demonstrated by that class of 1st graders being taken on a “field trip” to a teacher’s lesbian wedding ceremony. A Massachusetts Kindergarten teacher and school administrators decided that because gay marriage is “legal” there, that there was no reason to “inform” parents that the 5 year olds were being given “diversity lessons” and were being told that two men or two women could marry and that it was just as acceptable as a man and woman. Once gay marriage is legalized it’s going to be shoved down the throats of innocent children who shouldn’t even be discussing marriage PERIOD. And since when do kids go on “field trips” to weddings, anyway? This happened the SAME WEEK that the “No On 8” campaign launched an ad that said that it was a “lie” that same-sex marriage would be taught in schools to young children. A first grade class took a school-sponsored trip to a gay wedding, and the SCHOOL PRINCIPAL said that it was “a teachable moment,” and was perfectly appropriate for 5 and 6 year olds to go to a gay wedding for a school trip? Now tell me that “gay marriage” won’t be taught in schools to young children! THERE’S the lie.
So long Google. I’m using Quintura now, and I’m taking as many friends with me as I can.”
Threadjack
To take over the content of a message thread by changing the subject of discourse to a topic outside the purview of the original subject and/orforum, while maintaining the subject line.
okay, I sent my note to google. Mine was very brief, not as good as Tracey’s! I basically just said I’m going to use a new search engine and it’s becuase of their stance on Proposition 8.
Oregonian, this thread was started because I posted something about gay marriage on another thread. So it seemed like it would be okay to talk about another part of the gay marriage debate on this thread. It’s all on the same topic and has to do with pulling kids out of school. 🙂
Thanks kiar, face and gardner. I appreciate your help.
Does using a thread about pulling your kids out of school, as a dictionary to define “threadjack” count as a threadjack?
Just kidding Oregonian– couldn’t help it. 🙂
boycotting google because they dont support prop 8 is about pulling kids out of school?
Well, it’s related to the issue of the homosexual agenda. No harm done.
A gentleman in Modesto Ca. was handing out Prop 8 stuff and got jumped and beaten today. He ended up with stiches. Nice, huh?
Yeah. I saw something on that. It sounded like he was going to be suffering financially as well as physically, because he can’t work for awhile.
I JUST got an email from a friend about this very thing about an hour ago. She was telling me that people keep stealing “support Prop 8” signs of her and her neighbors’ yards. When someone was putting one back up people driving by started yelling at them, cussing at them, asking them why they “hated” gays… so infuriating.
Then she sent me the following just a few minutes ago
“I forgot to mention, when we got our voter pamphlets here in CA the description for Prop 8 (instead of saying amendement to the CA constitution defining marriage as between one man and one woman) it states: Denies rights of gay couples to marry. Revenue loss in the tens of millions due to loss of sales tax!
Can you believe this???? What does gay marriage have to do with sales tax? And how bias is it to say DENIES RIGHTS???? I called and left a message about this and, of course, no one called me back. I want someone to explain to me how this prop in any way, shape or form, effects SALES TAX!!!!!
You realize that all this “info” comes out of the AG’s office? The AG, Jerry Brown, is gay.
Kiar, did they say who it was, please say it wasn’t Uncle Steve?
I think the name is Jose Nunez.
http://iperceive.net/prop-8-supporter-bloodied-outside-catholic-church-in-modesto-attack/#more-1961
Is this what you’re asking, nanacarol?
Yes, thanks. Just hoping and praying my brother wasn’t involved!!!!!!
I assume he wasn’t?
they weren’t LDS, the people involved.
Check out this comment about the incident from my brother’s blog:
I do not personally know anyone who has ever advocated violence against g ays.
Unfortunately, I do – and not just a few. I lived in the Deep South for a few years, and some of the stuff I heard from adults and children alike would turn your stomach. “Gay stomping” is considered a sport by some people I knew.
Ray, I do as well – and it is sickening on both sides.
I’m cofused. What does gay stomping and google have to do with the public school thing?
ChanJo, I have no idea!
It’s conversation flow, one thing led to another?
Well, its all very interesting to me – on topic or not. I just found this website, and I am a homeschooling Mormon Mamma. It’s interesting to me to see what is going on in schools and what causes people to consider homeschooling and choose homeschooling. If what is going on in California isn’t enough to get people thinking about it, then I’m not sure what is. I especially liked the comment about what people in the 60’s would say if told this would happen. I believe the reason it has become reality is that those adults sent their kids to school who in turn sent their kids to school. I honestly believe public school drives a wedge between parents and children, making traditional values seem crusty and parents appear foolish. I think it is apparent that that is the very goal of the California school system with regards to pro-8 families. Anyone who thinks their school is immune from that kind of mentality in a school district should very carefully think again. As my husband and I have discussed the impact of schools in destroying the bonds of families and traditional morality, we have been able to discern the same forces in our own schooling years ago – only less outrageous (by today’s standards) than gay marriage being taught in school. Public schools have become laboratories for social experimentation in indoctrination, not to mention highly profitable consumer bases for “innovative” curriculum developers (diversity training, etc.).
Recently, California also tried to restrict the parental right to take full responsibilty for educating children. Here is a quote from an attorney for the California Teachers Association:
“Parents do not have an unfettered right to dictate the terms of their children’s education,” a lawyer for the union said in written arguments. Unregulated, unsupervised homeschooling, the lawyer said, is an invitation to “educational anarchy.”
(Full article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/08/BAE5127NLJ.DTL&tsp=1)
This kind of mentality alone is the “line” for me. I won’t send my kids to a school system that believes it is saving my children from me. Many of the things that are causing people to consider homeschooling proceed from this belief, which seems to be firmly held by teacher unions. Unfortunately for those who choose to homeschool, many parents are buying in to the idea that schools are better for kids than homes – largely for the reasons Alison Moore Smith lists in her article (convenience, unfamiliarty with options). I think the point of the article is a very important one – for parents to decide what their own line is, to carefully judge whether it has been crossed, and to decide on alternatives in the event the line is crossed. That point is easily lost in all the emotional arguments used by both homeschoolers and public schoolers, but in and of itself it is not sensational or judgemental. I appreciated the article very much and all the responses.
Welcome, angcarrig.
Yes, Lewis, it was just the way the conversation went. I’m afraid the majority of it was my fault.
I’m whispering this to you, just so you know…
Welcome to mormonmomma. In case it wasn’t obvious in this thread, there are a lot of strong opinions on both sides of the schooling issue. Generally people mean well, but just a heads-up. 🙂
Thanks! But I did notice 🙂 I have strong opinions, too, so that’s good. It kind of seemed that the point of the article was for people to start forming some strong opinions about schools and act on them when needed. So I guess all the comments really are on topic as long as they are related to the forming of strong opinions about school!
angcarrig, welcome and thank you for the thoughtful response. Look forward to hearing from you in the future!
Huh?
Would any of these schools get you (COLLECTIVE YOU) to consider alternatives? Every parent should watch this video.