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Church Light (& Casual)

They say the church is the same wherever you go. Do not be fooled. All you have to do is drive a few short miles from headquarters, up Little Cottonwood Canyon, to find the version designed for those of us who, apparently, don’t need such an intensive group experience as the rest of you.

We’re vacationing at Snowbird this week. Not exactly a bastion of Mormonism. To our surprise we opened the bedside table drawer to find the typical Gideon Bible and a Book of Mormon.

This Book of Mormon was unlike any other I had ever seen. Yes, it looked much like the typical missionary edition. But there, on the cover, right under the title, was glued a piece of parchment cardstock that read:

LDS Worship Service
Snowbird Center Level 2
9 ?10 AM on Sunday
Casual dress OK!

Please turn to page 529 – Moroni 10:4

Two things are really standing out to me here. First, the new-fangled one hour block. Second, the explicit proclamation indicating that swimming/hiking/skiing attire is expected. Woo hoo! We are so ready to be part of the new, reduced stress, pantyhose-free pilot program!

First thing this morning, we popped out of bed, threw on some pants, t-shirts, and flip flops, and strolled down to the Center. Following the signs, we arrived at a glass-enclosed room, filled with chairs, surrounded by trees.

The first disconcerting sight was the man greeting us who was obviously not OK with casual attire. At least he wasn’t OK with himself dressed down. The second was a room sparsely filled with other people who were also not OK with the edgy concept of casual.

Still, we made our way to some chairs, heads held high, making our best impression of investigators-who-don-not-know-better-than-to-believe-that-casual-dress-is-really-OK. I guess we blew our cover when the kids displayed their complete memorization of all of the Selected Hymns and Caleb called out, “I can pass the bread all by myself!”

Church Light began a few minutes late (good news for those of us trying to coax a toddler past the playground and the fishing pond to sit on a chair for an hour), and began with a hymn and a prayer. (Oh, yes, by a priesthood holder who was worthy, I assume, to invite the Spirit.) Then the man conducting explained the concept of the resort version of church. From what I could gather, those presiding and teaching were members from the Little Cottonwood and Granite wards assigned to create this weekly mini-meeting on some kind of a rotating basis. Attendance varies from a high of 175 to a low of zero. (Today we had about 60 or so stragglers.) Then we spent a few minutes while each “head of household” introduced their ?household.

Next we moved to Gospel Doctrine, figuratively speaking, which consisted of a nice, 15-minute discussion about Matthew 25. Then it was on to Sacrament Meeting: hymn, sacrament, and two short speakers. The first speaker was a newly returned missionary on assignment by his high council, accompanied by his father who happened to be Sam’s cousin. We can all now break into a resounding chorus of “It’s a Small World.”

The next mini-speaker (being “mini” because of the length of his talk, not because of his diminutive stature) gave a genuinely moving, sincere talk about trials, trust in the Lord, and the like. Very nice. Also enforced the idea that five-minute talks might be just about right.

After brief closing remarks, we sang and had a closing prayer. (Oh, yes, by a non-priesthood holder who was worthy, I assume, to invite the Spirit to leave?) Then we stacked the chairs, chatted with a few folks (including the long-lost cousin), and headed out.

Truly, I missed the old and familiar, but it was fun to experience church today in capri pants. (Nearly alone though I might have been.) And I’m grateful to the folks who make the weekly trek up the canyon (rain or shine, 52-weeks a year unless the roads are impassable), just to make church convenient and casual for vacationing families.

{ 157 comments… add one }
  • Sharilee10 June 17, 2007, 6:26 pm

    Wow! Sounds a bit different from my 3-hour block! Matthew 25 in 15 minutes! All I can say is that the teacher who gave the lesson is good— I didn’t even get through the whole thing in 40 minutes!

    Anyway— It sounds like a fun family memory that won’t soon be forgotten! Forever more your family can reminisce and laugh about the time you went to church ‘casual’!

    Have a GREAT time vacationing!

  • agardner June 17, 2007, 6:49 pm

    Alison, you’ll be happy to know that in my ward women often give the opening prayers – in fact, they often give both the opening and closing prayers. Pretty much it’s just random here.

    Your church experience sounds like a lot of fun!

  • Rebecca June 17, 2007, 7:01 pm

    I don’t think that I could go in ‘casual’ dress without some major trauma. I remember in Junior High I once wore blue jeans and a t-shirt and my science teacher took me aside after class and asked if I was feeling OK. :shocked: I don’t think I ever wore jeans again while I was in school…or t-shirts… I also don’t think that I could manage the shorter block. The two hours after Sacrament Meeting are the only two hours a week sans children that I get! Of course I have to wrestle with all of them during Sacrament Meeting but that’s a small price to pay for two hours of peace. 🙂

  • daisy June 17, 2007, 7:08 pm

    Having grown up in the mission field where my friends churchs all were experiencing the casual revolution, I liked having mine retain a more “church best” clothing. However, as I recall now, It was explained to me that chapel had special signifigance not unlike the temple and that’s why we always wore Sunday best in there. If you were there on a Wednesday for young women’s (mutual) and had to get from one end of the building to the other, you walked around the chapel rather than through if you were in casual clothing. I still do the same today. If I happen to be at the church with jeans on, I just can’t bring myself to walk through the chapel unless I have a dress on. It’s just disrespectful.

    Casual sacrement, even on vacation would take a lot of getting used to for me.

  • daisy June 17, 2007, 7:14 pm

    I just had a thought though.

    I showed up at a ward, close to my hotel while overnighting in Jacksonhole,WY. I remember the welcome was slightly less than welcome. It was when I had just started flight attending and had to work quite a few weekends. It was pointed out to me by a kind member there that there was a visitors meeting at a differnt time and this was the meeting for the residents of Jackson hole. (I promise I was dressed respectfully but somehow she spotted me as an outsider)

    I wonder if (like Jacksonhole) park city gets inundated with vacationers and they just don’t want them disrupting their sundays so they make a special casual service for them?

  • SilverRain June 17, 2007, 8:06 pm

    No, Jackson Hole is simply (by and large) snooty and insular.

    Edit: And ditto with Park City. Squared.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 17, 2007, 8:56 pm

    Posted By: daisyI just can’t bring myself to walk through the chapel unless I have a dress on. It’s just disrespectful.

    Yikes! I do it all the time ?when I sign up to clean the church. :devil:

    I’m not in Park City, but I’m guessing that they do it here to encourage members to come in spite of vacationing (the man conducting said that they always have lower attendance on the best ski days… :tongue:) and also in large part to make the invitation open to non-members and try to emphasize that they don’t need special clothing to be welcome. I think it’s wonderful to accommodate various situations.

    On the practical end, however, there were, I think, only two or three others who actual observed the OK Casual policy, so we felt odd. I kept thinking that if I was not a member and decided to check out the Saints…only to find myself the only one NOT dressed up, I would have been extremely uncomfortable and, perhaps, even that it was misrepresented. (Kind of like the “free” Christmas pageant I attended at another church, that ended with large men blocking the aisle waiting for “donations.”)

    I’ve also learned some things about culture vs. practice, like men wearing lava lavas in Polynesian cultures. In my early adulthood I really thought Sunday dress SHOULD mean nice dress or suit, polished hairdo, hose, dress shoes. Heaven forbid anyone should wear any kind of jumper or…gasp…denim. Then I moved to Florida and found myself the only woman insane enough to wear panythose. In Hawaii last month I was, again, the only one. I still usually wear them because I have the most hideous white legs on the planet. But I’ve gotten over looking down my nose at those who don’t. And I don’t think they are disrespectful for doing so.

    daisy, I’m sure that’s the case and think the special service is a great thing. Looking askance at those who visit the regular meeting “by mistake”? Not a great thing.

  • mlinford June 17, 2007, 10:40 pm

    I thought of you today as my VT gave the opening prayer in Sacrament meeting. 🙂

    Have a fun vacation!

  • Sharilee10 June 17, 2007, 10:51 pm

    In our ward at least one of the prayers is given by a woman every week, so I don’t even notice– not even after our little discussion here. I guess that shows how common it is.

    Daisy, Thank you for the reminder about the sacred nature of the chapel. I remember well the day when I didn’t break the barrier of the chapel doors if I wasn’t dressed appropriately. I have to say that after holding choir practice in the chapel at odd times when putting a dress on was NOT a priority, I got over that, and it is not something I am really thrilled about. Again, I appreciate your reminder and will be more cognizant of my attire when I enter that sacred part of the Church building. I’m not exactly what the future holds for me there, but it is certainly something worth re-considering and seeing where the Lord wants me to be on that in my circumstance.

  • east-of-eden June 18, 2007, 7:12 am

    Here where I live in northern New Mexico, church is a lot more ‘light and casual’ than on the Wasatch Front. We’re lucky if all the deacons and teachers show up with combed hair and socks on. And many of our members who come in from their ranches, dress like ranchers. As for wearing jeans in the chapel….I remember being taught that as well in my ‘almost Wasatch Front ward’ in Mesa AZ. but I think that is more of a cultural thing than an actual rule. We frequently sign up to clean the building and we always go in our grubbies to do that assignment. Our mutual also holds opening excercises in the chapel on Weds nights. The only ones even closely wearing “Sunday” clothes are the bishopric–and even they wear more casual dress for Wednesdays. I think it’s more important our attitude in the church than what we are wearing that is important.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 18, 2007, 9:48 am

    Posted By: mlinfordAlison,
    I thought of you today as my VT gave the opening prayer in Sacrament meeting.

    I hope you relished it for me. 🙂

    Posted By: Sharilee10In our ward at least one of the prayers is given by a woman every week, so I don’t even notice– not even after our little discussion here. I guess that shows how common it is.

    We have a woman pray almost every week, too. But it’s always the closing. Always. What is it that you are saying is common? Women praying or women giving opening prayers? Do women open in your ward, Sharilee, or only close? I think I’ll start a nationwide poll and then turn it into my bishopric. 🙂 But remember, you have to report on fact, not on memory.

    It’s funny how this will come up on the Bloggernacle every now and again. The reaction always seems to be either, “Yea, my ward does that, too.” or “What? That’s crazy?” OK, I’ll start writing it up later today.

  • Oregonian June 18, 2007, 10:02 am

    I think this sounds great. Why are we so wrapped up in what people wear? (pun!) I’ve been in lots of chapels where people didn’t have on nice clothes, some of the most spiritual and respectful congregations in the whole world, I think. If God looks on the heart, why don’t we?

  • Oregonian June 18, 2007, 10:03 am

    Also wanted to say that Allison brought up a good point. If we say casual and don’t do casual, that has the potential to leave people thinking we lied and they feel uncomfortable. That might be a problem.

  • Sharilee10 June 18, 2007, 10:54 am

    Alison, women also say the opening prayer. I know this for fact and not just from memory because the ONLY time I have ever been late and walked in during the opening song it turned out that they had ‘thought’ they asked me to say the opening prayer and so my name was on the program. After the song the bishop got up and said, “I see Sister Guest is here now, so we’ll go ahead and have her say the prayer!”

    Talk about a shocker! Anyway– it was okay because the whole ward knows I’m always there early. Even if I’m not playing the organ our family sits on the 3rd row from the front, and you have to be there on time or walk all the way from the back to the front to get there. That’s not fun!!

    By the way— not assigned seats. We live 3 doors down from the Church so my kids go early every week to set up the sacrament, etc. and ‘save our bench’

  • Alison Moore Smith June 18, 2007, 12:08 pm

    Ah, you’re one of the families who owns a pew! We had one of those when I was a kid. The Owens always sat on the very front, center row. The parents and all 13 kids. In Boca another family owned the front, left pew. They sat there (I swear!) so that they could get the sacrament before it got any cooties in it. I used to try to get there in time to sit in their seat just to see the looks on their faces. I’ve matured since then.

  • agardner June 18, 2007, 12:39 pm

    Alison, I sit right behind the deacons for that very same reason (so there are no cooties!). Not really, although one day I realized that we were always first and that was a good benefit, especially after I have witnessed my own children dribbling their water all over everyone else’s cups (yuck!). Really, the reason why we started sitting there is because that way the kids can get a good look at their dad and he can give them the evil eye from the stand. But no cooties in the Sacrament is a bonus.

  • Sharilee10 June 18, 2007, 1:27 pm

    LOLOL! Yes, Alison, we OWN the pew! However . . . some members of the ward seem to forget this! If by chance my children don’t get to the Church early enough, the family who ‘owns’ the 4th pew takes over our 3rd pew and leaves us absolutely homeless! I was shocked the first time it happened– didn’t they know by now!?! 🙂

    Yesterday was one of those days. Kids were gone– I didn’t have to play the organ– so I walked in just as the meeting was started. Everyone on the side aisle had moved up. Okay– so I could have sat with the one man who sits on the 2nd pew right behind the deacons, but what they hay– I sat on the back row. Now I remember why I sit up front! It was so noisy I could hardly hear what was being said. I’ll be back to my 3rd row pew next week! 😉

  • Rachel June 18, 2007, 1:35 pm

    Oh, Alison, I used to do that, too–sit in one of the “reserved” pews just to see the family’s looks! 🙂 Ah, good times, good times . . . I also love going to baby blessings in small, rural wards and watching the locals get frustrated by our family taking up half of the middle section of the chapel.

    Also, for the longest time I thought women could only give the opening prayers because that was all I noticed in my wards (Taylorsville, St. George, Cedar City , Ivins). But I think it’s pretty random because dh and I were asked to say the prayers once recently, and to choose which of us did which. I’ve never heard that a priesthood holder had to open the meeting.

  • zmg June 19, 2007, 9:49 am

    Not to be argumentative here but I have a question. I own very nice dressy pants suits that I wear for business. Why are they not acceptable when women wear denim jumpers to church? That has never made sense to me.

  • daisy June 19, 2007, 10:16 am

    The clothes issue.

    ONe person’s Sunday best is not another’s. For some reason I’ve always equated it with the offering Abel gave to the Lord he gave HIS BEST of what the LORD ASKED.

    I don’t think we should get confused and think people are trying to say that you can’t pray if you’re in casual clothes- one prays anywhere, anytime it is needful. But there are things we do to show respect to our Heavenly Father and to get us in the proper frame of mind of prayer and for me that includes kneeling when possible.

    SAme with SAcrement, If flip-flops and a handme down bluejean jumper where the best clothes I owned and could REASONABLY afford to own, (notice I said reasonably, i am not advocating going out without food or payment of rent to buy an expensive “mormon” suit ) then I would feel totally right with the Lord in showing up to sacrement in just that, as long as it was clean. (Remember the song Saturday is a special day?)
    The purpose of SAcrement is to renew our covenants with the Lord and to remember his sacrifice for us.
    There are certain things we can do both spiritually and temporally to get us in the right frame of mind to do so.
    With us it’s not a once a year easter thing, it’s every Sunday.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 19, 2007, 10:28 am

    zmg, I think it’s just the boundary thing. Lines are always arbitrary. Always. You can always argue that the boundary could (or should) be moved a bit one way or the other and it won’t make a difference. In other words these lines we draw can almost never be logically defended.

    Take the earring thing, for example. President Hinckley said one pair of modest earrings is acceptable. Honestly, would a second teeny pair really turn us into hussies? No. So why not two? And if two, why not three? Or three on one side and one on the other?

    Why set a 10:00 curfew if 10:01 isn’t really any different? And if 10:01 is no different, then there is no set time that can be defended.

    The fact that these boundaries cannot be defended against minute changes has never kept anyone from drawing boundaries and it simply can’t if we want to function. For whatever reason, in the church it has been determined that dresses are appropriate and pants aren’t. Of course there are some pants that are more dressy than dresses, but the line has been drawn at dresses.

    An interesting logical construct that follows this idea is the “continuum fallacy” or the “paradox of the heap.” Fun reading if your into that kind of thing like I am. You can google it and get lots of sources.

  • agardner June 19, 2007, 11:35 am

    I was surprised after moving to Louisiana last year how many women wear slacks to church. There is one member of the Primary presidency in particular who wears a nice pair of dress slacks every few weeks. For her, it’s not a money thing (I don’t think) because she does have several nice dresses that she wears on other weeks.

    I’m not sure if it’s just a cultural thing or what.

    For me personally, it depends on the person’s situation. Here we have a lot of new converts and also a lot of people with little money (lots of them are still living in FEMA trailers, for heaven’s sake!). It also depends on their frame of mind (which is not for me to judge). If they can be worshipful in that attire and it does not affect my worship (which it doesn’t usually) I don’t make a big thing of it.

    As an aside, we did have a bishop once who gave a talk about denim and flip-flops not being appropriate for Sacrament meeting. A lot of women were really offended and were in fact in that very attire at the time! He should have sent out a notice before church that morning: “If you are wearing denim and flip-flops today, you might want to go home and change!”

    I myself have never really been a denim and flip-flop kind of gal, so it didn’t bother me. But I could see a lot of women who wanted to crawl under the bench.

  • mlinford June 19, 2007, 12:55 pm

    I liked what Alison said, but I would add if wearing pants is what will get someone to church, I say let them wear pants. As much as there are “ideals” set out, I think this shouldn’t be something that causes someone to be driven out of the Church or avoiding it, either. On the flip side, I think it ought not to be simply a matter of stubbornness on the side of the individual, either, but even then, I’d rather have someone come in pants than not come at all!

    We have a brother in our ward who comes in holey levis. They are poor and he’s new to the Church. In NJ, we had people coming in all sorts of clothing, again most of them poor and/or new. I think sometimes this is a line-upon-line thing. A bishop giving counsel about denim and flip-flops could be about fine-tuning, perhaps, inviting members to consider small ways to show more respect and reverence for the sacrament. (I stopped wearing denim to Church when I heard that was the standard for missionaries. I had never really thought about it before a couple of years ago, to be honest, and lots of women still wear denim.)

    Elder Holland expressed concern about how we come dressed to church, simply for the fact that the sacrament is a sacred ordinance and he was concerned that we sometimes forget that, I think. But I always like to rejoice, too, in where people are. And then to see how it’s all a process for all of us. The details can often help us give our hearts, I think. But if we aren’t careful, they can also turn us into Pharisees, if we use them to judge or criticize others.

    When I worked at the temple, we were told never to comment on what someone was wearing when they came. (Not saying the bishop can’t say something to his ward that he feels inspired to say, but to say that for most of us, what others wear should not be an issue.)

    And now I’ve rambled, again. 🙂

  • SilverRain June 19, 2007, 4:30 pm

    I admit it, I’m a denim and flip-flop kind of person. I have a denim jumper that I almost feel pretty in that I wear occasionally. I don’t feel pretty in the sort of clothing I wear now (namely a maternity skirt and shirt) because it’s what I fit in, and I really don’t have the extra cash to go out and buy a new wardrobe. Same thing goes for the shoes. I have great difficulty finding dress shoes for $30 or less that I like and don’t hurt my feet. Therefore, flip-flops or the moccasins I bought for my wedding in the summertime and knee-high dress boots I bought in Europe on my mission in the winter.

    There, confession over.

    Note that I’m not one of the women who has ever served in any kind of presidency. Are you sensing a correlation?

  • mollymormon June 19, 2007, 11:23 pm

    So how about nylons? I heard you should wear those, but most women don’t, especially in the summer time. Not even at the temple. I tried to wear them for a while, but finally I just figured if even all the elderly ladies don’t wear them, what’s the point?

  • Alison Moore Smith June 20, 2007, 12:28 am

    “Should” is a mighty big word there. I think that feeling was much more prevalent in 1991 (when I moved to Florida) than now.

  • mlinford June 20, 2007, 12:31 am

    I’ve never seen any specific general counsel about nylons, although I do hear ripples of it here and there. I think there is a lot of room for personal choice in these types of things. I decided after Elder Holland’s talk to wear nylons. For me, it felt good to “step it up” a bit. But that’s not doctrine, and I’m one of the few, especially in my age bracket. In fact, I can only think of one other woman my age or younger who wears hose, and there are plenty of women older than I who do, too.

    Silver, I can’t wait until you are called into a presidency and see that your supposed correlation is shown to be bunk. 🙂

  • SilverRain June 20, 2007, 6:39 am

    Nylons are of the devil. Therefore, they have no place in a worshipful setting. 😉

    And Alison, time shall tell, no? :devil:

  • daisy June 20, 2007, 9:40 am

    I can’t live without either control top nylons or jeans. people don’t wear girdles anymore and I gotta have something to suck in that squishy stuff.

    about twenty-some years ago I got a run in my hose on the way to the provo temple. I figured it was summer and i’m olive skinned I guess I can do with out pantyhose this once, so i took them off in the car.

    when I got in the dressing room in the temple one of the sisters pulled me aside and told me never to come to the temple again “naked”. and yes that is the word she used. It took me a couple of minutes to realize what she meant. —without stockings.

    too young to know that was her personal take, i was mortified.

    we live and learn.

  • agardner June 20, 2007, 10:08 am

    Hey Daisy, I still wear a girdle! (Not often, but occasionally if the outfit demands).

    I do feel a little more dressed up in nylons, although I usually wear knee highs. I think it was really rude of that sister in the temple to say something to you. Seriously, naked??

  • Alison Moore Smith June 20, 2007, 10:42 am

    Naked??? Holy cow.

  • zmg June 20, 2007, 11:28 am

    I don’t do nylons. I have major weight issues (which I’m trying to address) which makes buying nylons to fit correctly more than difficult. (I care the majority of my weight between my waist and my knees). That’s one of the reasons why I wear nice pant suits. The Stake president made the Bishop say something in Sacrament one time about pants. I was wearing my pant suit but it was also the first time anyone had ever said anything. My husband had never mentioned that I was supposed to wear them. I guess what gets me is that it just seems like another man rule instead of a God rule.

  • Rebecca June 20, 2007, 11:45 am

    FWIW I have personally attended two Stake Firesides in recent years where the Stake President has said that women are to wear nylons and shoes to attend the Temple. Our current Stake President said that the Temple President wished for the women in the area to know that that is considered appropriate dress for women to attend the Temple. Both Stake Presidents also said that bare legs and flip flops are not appropriate for Sacrament Meeting or interviews with the Bishop or Stake President. I don’t know if it is policy or not but that is the counsel I have heard.

  • mlinford June 20, 2007, 12:55 pm

    I think it was really rude of that sister in the temple to say something to you.

    Did I mention that as a temple worker, we were told specifically not to comment on dress?

    Rebecca, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was what was preferred in all situations. I know this was said somewhere else as well (not in my stake, though).

    agardner, knee-highs are soooo my preference. And there have been plenty of days when I’ve gone without cuz I can’t find any clean nylons!

    zmg, like I said before, I’d rather have someone come in pants than not come at all. I personally like the dress standard because dresses are something basically reserved for Church things for me, so that keeps the day different. It’s also the only time I really dress up at all, and that feels good to me. A pant suit for me would feel more like I was ready for a business meeting. But that’s my frame of reference. Do what works for you. If you need to, explain why you are doing what you are doing to your bishop. I think things like this are a process sometimes. I really don’t think the dress thing is “just another man rule” (I think there is purpose in it) but if it doesn’t feel like your thing, right now, it’s not one of the those things that should mean you can’t go to church. (I would talk to your bishop just so he is aware that you are aware of what he said and this is why you do what you do now, so that if he is told to talk about it again, you can know that he understands where you are and you won’t feel singled out.)

  • SilverRain June 20, 2007, 12:59 pm

    All I can say is that my husband used to whine about his tie. I told him I didn’t want to hear another word about it until he was prepared to wear full nylons in the worst heat of summer and female dress shoes. I will never understand why we feel the need for self-castigation every Sunday.

    Edit: As a note, I feel entirely differently about dresses. I love dresses. They are so cool and comfortable and slinky. No dress pants could ever be as comfortable as a good, well-made dress, especially if said dress is long enough to allow one to sit on the floor.

  • mlinford June 20, 2007, 1:11 pm

    All I can say is that my husband used to whine about his tie. I told him I didn’t want to hear another word about it until he was prepared to wear full nylons in the worst heat of summer and female dress shoes.

    hehehe. Amen sista!

  • mlinford June 20, 2007, 1:14 pm

    I will never understand why we feel the need for self-castigation every Sunday.

    I’m not sure what you mean. Can you explain?

  • SilverRain June 20, 2007, 3:47 pm

    Nylons and dress shoes = torture.

  • Sharilee10 June 20, 2007, 9:00 pm

    Nylons are of the devil. Therefore, they have no place in a worshipful setting.

    I’m with Silver! 🙂 Seriously, nylons do add to the feeling of being dressed up, no doubt. When I’m in a business suit I’ll go with the nylons, but I much prefer to go with a longer, full skirt and suit jacket so that I can avoid the nylon scene all together.

    Alison– as far as the word ‘should’ goes, I have removed that word from my vocabulary. Instead of saying, “I should have . . . ” I say, “I could have . . . but I didn’t.” That was a lifesaver on my most recent trip when Miss Prepared for everything (myself) began to realize I had forgotten so many things I couldn’t keep track of them! It was almost funny, and some of them were even important, but alas– I just kept saying, “Well, I could have remembered to bring *insert yet another forgotten item*, but I didn’t. All is as it should be . . . it’s going to be a great trip! I realized the value of this little habit when my daughter, who had only forgotten one thing (black shoes that got left in the car) literally freaked out when she realized she had forgotten them. I thought she would have a heart attack at 12 until I said, “Honey, you could have brought the shoes, but you didn’t. The white shoes will be fine.” And they were. She later came to me and said, “Mom– I learned something on that trip. Things not turning out the way I planned really isn’t the end of the world. There is always another option that will work, too.”

    So . . . I COULD wear nylons to Church, but I usually choose not to!! If the First Presidency comes out and asks me to, I will. Until then . . . I’ll just be comfortable.

  • facethemusic June 23, 2007, 3:34 pm

    One of the talks in conference (can’t remember if it was April or last October) addressed this– speaking of flip-flops that are meant for the pool or beach not being appropriate for Sunday dress, and other things that are considered inappropriate for church meetings. I’ll see if I can find it.
    As to the issue of nylons in the temple– it’s actually in the little booklet they give you in temple preparation classes. When you set a date for endowments or marriages, the temple sends you a packet of information, how to prepare spiritually and physically, what to bring, not to bring, etc.. and one of the things they send it that same booklet. It mentions that women should wear pantyhose and not be bear-legged.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 23, 2007, 8:17 pm

    Isn’t it a relief that Judith Rasband isn’t a general authority and that the Church News isn’t canonized? :devil:

    Actually, I like some of her stuff, and attended her classes at Ed Week, years ago. IMO though, her presentation stuff is really dated–like the book she still sells filled with 80’s styles. And we should remember that she’s SELLING something.

    First, let me say that I don’t have a denim skirt or dress, and haven’t since I was in 9th grade. I have never worn a T-shirt to church. I usually wear pantyhose. I have worn a shoe with a toe strap to church about four or five times, but it wasn’t a beach flip-flop, it was a dressier shoe, and I wore it with an ankle-length skirt.

    In spite my personal preference, I find Rasband’s statements to are more about her age than anything. It would be like my grandmother telling me that I shouldn’t go out to dinner without a hat and a hanky. A lot of stuff refers to how something was originally used, as if uses–and even APPROPRIATE uses–never change.

    Respectful and refined fabrics are, what, those of smaller weave? I know that she used to show those heavy, plaid, wool skirts as being a great example of dressy wear. How does that fit with her definition of “refined fabrics”? I love her declaration that a white shirt below a shorter shirt is inappropriate, but a colored one is fine. I don’t wear any of the layered tees (like I really need more bulk!), but I have never in my life thought they looked like UNDERWEAR hanging out. And I’m really pleased to see a girl who is actually concerned about modesty. Do we really, now need to gripe about the COLOR?

    I agree that being dressed appropriately and respectfully is good, but I find her specifics to be way too nit-picky.

    Tracy, I’m not sure that the packet that you speak of is a universal thing. I never got one and have not known anyone who did, even when serving as an escort. You’ll notice lots of things in temples that are decided at the local level. I’d be interested in seeing the booklet you refer to. I’ve taught temple prep and have the manual, but I don’t remember a booklet. Is it IN the manual? Produced by the church?

    Posted By: facethemusicIt mentions that women should wear pantyhose and not be bear-legged.

    This makes it sound like a modesty issue. “Ooooo! Here legs are BARE!!!!” What do pantyhose add to modesty? They are see-through! 🙂

    I think there are elements of local bias here. I wear them when I dress up, just as I did all day today, but unless you’ve tried to wear hose in a sub-tropical climate while nine months pregnant, don’t be to quick to decide that everyone on the planet should wear them to be “appropriately” dressed. Not a soul in Samoa wears them and I was the only one in Hawaii that I remember.

  • facethemusic June 23, 2007, 8:27 pm

    It was a little booklet published by the church though– about the size of the discussion booklets that the missionaries were using a few years ago, except it was white. I think it’s called “The House of the Lord”, or “The Temple of the Lord”– something along those lines.
    It certainly wasn’t something that someone typed on a typewriter at home. It was definately a church publication, so it couldn’t have been a “local” thing. I did keep it and the folder the temple sent me, but I’ll have to dig in the basement and see if I can find it.

  • agardner June 23, 2007, 9:40 pm

    You might be talking about the House of the Lord booklet. No one I knew received it when preparing for the temple unless it was given them by a friend or family member. Maybe some temples do that, I doubt those in Utah do because of the sheer numbers of people they have going through. I know I didn’t. My mom did give me one though. I don’t remember the nylon thing in there but it’s been years and I always wear nylons anyway so I probably missed that part.

    Now that I live in the humid climate of Louisiana, I do break from pantyhouse, although the a/c in our church is always blasting so it’s just the walk to/from the car that’s the problem. I usually wear knee highs and feel okay about that.

  • facethemusic June 23, 2007, 9:44 pm

    Maybe some temples do that, I doubt those in Utah do because of the sheer numbers of people they have going through.

    That’s certainly possible. I got married in Atlanta, and we were the first of only 2 couples getting married that day.

  • facethemusic June 23, 2007, 9:54 pm

    I’m not sure if this is the quote I was thinking of or not– it’s from the April 2005 conference, and I was thinking of a more recent quote– at least I thought it was more recent.
    I’ll keep looking.

    Jeffrey R. Holland:
    “I make a special appeal regarding how young women might dress for Church services and Sabbath worship. We used to speak of best dress ? or Sunday dress, ? and maybe we should do so again. In any case, from ancient times to modern we have always been invited to present our best selves inside and out when entering the house of the Lord and a dedicated LDS chapel is a house of the Lord. ? Our clothing or footwear need never be expensive, indeed should not be expensive, but neither should it appear that we are on our way to the beach. When we come to worship the God and Father of us all and to partake of the sacrament symbolizing the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we should be as comely and respectful, as dignified and appropriate as we can be. We should be recognizable in appearance as well as in behavior that we truly are disciples of Christ, that in a spirit of worship we are meek and lowly of heart, that we truly desire the Savior ?s Spirit to be with us always

  • Sharilee10 June 23, 2007, 10:30 pm

    Oh and I didn’t notice anything in the article that mentioned pantyhose.

    Whew! I was hoping there wouldn’t be mention of pantyhose.

    Okay— personally I find wearing pantyhose to the temple a wasted step. It takes so long to put them on just to walk in the temple and have to take them off. I much prefer to wear a long skirt that covers my legs and then be able to get changed so much more quickly. Yes– I am fully aware that we could take this one step further and say, ‘So why bother getting dressed at all!” Okay, okay— whatever. I really don’t like pantyhose– I REALLY don’t like pantyhose!

  • mlinford June 23, 2007, 10:50 pm

    I think anyone who ever talks about hose is addressing dressing up a bit, not covering legs per se, at least not a lot of the time. Even those who don’t like hose have talked about how they think they dress up an outfit.

    So, I’m curious, since I don’t take the Church News…why was Sister Rasband the one writing this article? Was she contacted as an “expert” or is she involved somehow in RS or what? Although I can see what she is getting at, the more I go along, the more specifics on general principles from people without the authority to give them make me kind of uncomfy (esp. when in this kind of setting…not talking so much about discussions like those that go on here). That said, I do think it was interesting to hear her take on white shirts underneath (seriously, I’m pretty picky and I never would have thought of that). And I do think she has a point with tshirts. I think in general church dress has gotten a little too casual, and I think that is what Elder Holland was concerned about. But note that he didn’t give a lot of specifics minus the beach dress comment. And even that hasn’t stopped people from wearing flip flops. 🙂

  • Alison Moore Smith June 23, 2007, 11:00 pm

    Great quote, Tracy. Sharilee, you reminded me of something. Anyone else notice that when you rent temple clothes, they do NOT give you pantyhose? 🙂

    I agree, Michelle. And I like Elder Holland’s quote because I think that is what he’s addressing. It’s a principle, not a specific application. Dress up a bit more than you do elsewhere. Like I said, I don’t have any denim dresses or skirts, but I think denim could be acceptable just like most other fabrics.

  • mlinford June 23, 2007, 11:05 pm

    I think denim could be acceptable just like most other fabrics.

    From the days before I quit denim (grin), I can still remember an outfit I wore for the 4th. Cute skirt with a white shirt and a red and blue sweater vest. Got a comment on the outfit, even. I stopped the denim thing after hearing missionaries don’t and I was in the mode of wanting to step my dress up a bit, but I still see a lot of denim and I usually see it worn respectfully (even with hose).

    they do NOT give you pantyhose?

    Just another reason to like long skirts. I can wear knee-highs. :bigsmile:

  • facethemusic June 24, 2007, 8:24 am

    Maybe that’s the point though??? The temple doesn’t give us pantyhose, they give us knee highs. But when we’re wearing dresses that practically touch the floor, why aren’t we just wearing the slippers? Or those little ‘peds’ that just cover the foot, like when you’re trying on shoes, instead of hose or knee highs?
    It’s just another thing that makes me think that there’s a point or a reason behind not being bare-legged. And as Michelle pointed out– I don’t think it’s a ‘modesty’ thing, I think it’s a matter of being more formally dressed.

  • Rebecca June 24, 2007, 12:40 pm

    A couple of thoughts. First of all I think there are probably a number of reasons that the temple provide knee highs as opposed to pantyhose. Knee highs are less expensive, more hygienic, and generally one size fits most.

    While I was at church today I did a little survey of the congregation and I noticed a number of things. There were only two men that weren’t wearing ties. On the other hand there were about fifteen women that were wearing very casual clothes, had clothes that inadequately covered their garments, and there were only two or three women that were wearing pantyhose/knee highs. The other thing I noticed was that the younger the women were the more likely they were to be dressed inappropriately for church. I think that the saddest thing though was as I looked at the young men and young women I didn’t see that any of the boys were dressed inappropriately. They all had white shirts and ties and dress slacks. On the other hand I did not see one young woman who was dressed in modest or appropriate attire. I sometimes wonder what that says about us at women because we are obviously given more latitude then the brothers are about what is acceptable to wear to church and yet often I think we are the biggest offenders of dressing appropriately.

    I do want to say that church is not the only place where people are dressed inappropriately. I usually attend one or two black tie formal events a year and I have yet to attend one where even a quarter of the people are dressed appropriately for the occasion. Once again I have to say that women are the biggest dress code offenders. Generally speaking even if the men are not wearing tuxedos they still are wearing dress shirts and ties. However, I can’t tell you how many times I have seen women wearing blue jeans with rhinestones and tank tops with sequins as if they believe that as long as your clothes sparkle and your show some skin you are dressed up. In a church setting one can argue that there are sometimes financial constraints or other reasons why there may be some not dressed in a certain way but when it comes to a social event where presumably the people attending have the means to obtain appropriate clothes one has to wonder.

  • Lewis_Family June 24, 2007, 1:14 pm

    Oh glory on the pantyhose issue, I am not a fan. Funny thought though, what about the fishnets that women wear, do those count as a pantyhose/nylon? If so, I don’t know how since when I see them I think “hooker” ( I know I shouldn’t judge, but honestly. ) I think it is sad that missionaries can not wear a denim skirt. a) there are quite the attractive and modest styles, sometimes more so than other fabrics and b) they are so durable, they would last a whole mission 🙂

    Just my two cents.

  • agardner June 24, 2007, 2:17 pm

    I’m going to plead ignorance here and ask: Who is Sister Rasband, what is she trying to sell, and why is she in the Church News? (Mine takes a few weeks to get to me…if it ever makes it at all). Guess I’ll google her.

  • agardner June 24, 2007, 2:39 pm

    Okay, I googled her so I’m not quite so ignorant any more. I actually have heard of her before, I just didn’t remember her name.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 24, 2007, 2:56 pm

    Posted By: RebeccaThey all had white shirts and ties and dress slacks.

    Don’t even get me going on the white shirts…

  • daisy June 24, 2007, 6:07 pm

    I like Jeffrey R. Hollands quote best where he says:
    “we have always been invited to present our best selves when entering the house of the Lord”
    I think that says it all and I think we need to remember that my best isn’t your best, nor is your best mine.
    Someone we may be viewing and thinking they could step it up a bit may have gone through massive changes in their life and THIS IS THEIR BEST SELF, right now. We have to remember like the saying goes that God isn’t done with them yet.
    I’m in charge of me.
    and only me.

  • Sharilee10 June 24, 2007, 6:14 pm

    Okay . . . a couple of observations. Today was Ward Conference so they read off all of the leaders for sustaining. They read the women’s organizations before some of the men’s organizations. I did notice one young man there in jeans and a pullover– not sure what that was about, his parents are very active and dress appropriately. The young man sitting right in front of me was wearing white socks with his black suit. At one point during the meeting 4 of the 6 men sitting on the stand were nodding off (all 3 in the stake presidency and one member of our bishopric).

    Here is the biggest thing I noticed— I go to Church to worship and I didn’t particularly like the fact that I all of a sudden was noticing all of this other stuff! I’ve never really noticed before, and it makes for a much more spiritual experience when I’m not so acutely aware of all of this other stuff. I’m not going to worry about what anyone else is wearing other than myself and my children. Unless I hear official word from the First Presidency I’m going to go on getting dressed up in my suits and dresses and avoiding pantyhose whenever possible.

  • SilverRain June 24, 2007, 8:13 pm

    Does anyone else ever feel really, really tired and overwhelmed trying to keep up with what everyone else thinks is the right thing to do? I suppose I’m extra sensitive today for a plethora of reasons I won’t get into. I just suddenly felt so discouraged as I read this. I feel like I could now write an updated version of “the Pharisee’s Handbook.”

  • mlinford June 24, 2007, 8:59 pm

    Does anyone else ever feel really, really tired and overwhelmed trying to keep up with what everyone else thinks is the right thing to do?

    I hate that feeling. I know it well. Just remember we are just discussing topics that cross our minds, but there is nothing here except for the occasional prophetic quote or reference to such that is official. I have to remind myself often that the Lord doesn’t want me to feel overwhelmed and paralyzed. Life is a process. The Lord saves His people, if we are striving and pressing forward. His grace is sufficient.

    But I don’t think we should dismiss considering dress issues as simply Pharisee-like, unless we are using it to judge or be self-righteous. I think what daisy said above is very important. We should assume others are doing their best, and simply try to figure out what God would have us do, what the next step is in our progression (not in someone else’s!) 🙂

  • Rebecca June 24, 2007, 10:11 pm

    I did not mean to make anyone feel tired or overwhelmed. I am a seamstress so I look at people’s clothes because I am interested in the styles and fabrics, the fit and so on. My biggest concern isn’t so much the style or fabric that women wear but the fact that so many women come to church dressed immodestly. There may not be clear cut rules for what is considered appropriate fabric for a dress or whether a woman is required to wear pantyhose to attend church but I remember being instructed on the proper way to wear the garment. It really does bother me that women are so careless about letting their garments show and I have heard many men talk about how uncomfortable it makes them feel. I am not so sure I phrased all of that the best way but there you have it…

  • mlinford June 24, 2007, 10:55 pm

    I remember being instructed on the proper way to wear the garment. It really does bother me that women are so careless about letting their garments show and I have heard many men talk about how uncomfortable it makes them feel. I am not so sure I phrased all of that the best way but there you have it…

    I agree with this. Although I had a funny experience with that today…was in a hurry (gee, what a surprise!), sat down in church and felt behind my back to realize that my top was totally (like really, really obviously) hanging out, bunched up funny in the back. Ayeyeyey! 🙂

  • mollymormon June 24, 2007, 11:15 pm

    Sorry to bring up such a controversial topic as pantyhose, lol! I just have wondered if it is appropriate because I’ve heard rumblings but hardly anyone ever wears them any more. And it is stinkin’ hard to wear them on a 100 degree day! I never got any instruction booklets when i went through the temple, and I really don’t even remember taking a temple prep class either.

    At any rate, what to me is worse is the skin tight clothing the young women and a lot of the women wear. I wasn’t even trying to pay attention to clothing today (like apparently this thread made many of you do), but I saw this YW Leader today wearing a skin-tight tshirt that was so tight I could see her ab muscles. What is up with that? Last time I had a temple recommend interview, the stake pres counselor added on a little part at the end – he just said he was asking all young mothers to make absolutely certain they were wearing modest clothing. I thought that was great, yet I think many of these women think they ARE being modest, even with their skin tight tees, plunging necklines, etc. I don’t know how much clearer the prophet /church could make our standards!

    I guess the true test for pantyhose or whatever is the question in FTSOY. “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?” (Actually this question is probably based more on how WE would feel, rather than the Lord, as he’d be accepting of all, right?)

  • mlinford June 24, 2007, 11:43 pm

    FWIW, the pantyhose thing for me was for ME, because it felt right for ME. But by the same token, it’s not simply something that I impose on myself, do or die. Some days, it doesn’t work for me to get them on (usually for time’s sake). And I know the Lord knows my heart based on what I’m trying to do. But this isn’t something I have heard anywhere generally to everyone, so I’m not trying to say that it’s a must for everyone. We do what we feel right and good about, and there is a lot of room for individual specifics on a lot of these kinds of things. So I just wanted to make that clear. I do this because that is what has felt right for me, and what has ended up feeling more comfortable for me. But in the summer, I’m less apt to push myself, more apt to find outfits for knee=highs, and more willing to let it go, so I understand the heat thing. 🙂

    We do what we can, and the Lord knows our hearts. This matters most in all of this, especially as we are striving hard in our lives to do what is right. I hope this discussion doesn’t leave anyone feeling picked on or judged or whatever.

  • Sharilee10 June 25, 2007, 12:52 am

    “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

    Sounds like a great way to determine what we should and shouldn’t be wearing, and it may be different for each of us.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 25, 2007, 3:47 am

    My point about the temple knee-highs was that even in the temple we don’t have to full wear hose. (Didn’t someone half-way apologize for knee-highs? Asking if they were OK?)

    Hey, Tracy. Can I wear my slippers to church? That’s what they rent out at the temples. :devil:

    Posted By: mollymormonbut I saw this YW Leader today wearing a skin-tight tshirt that was so tight I could see her ab muscles.

    Wow. Wish you could see my ab muscles.

    he just said he was asking all young mothers to make absolutely certain they were wearing modest clothing.

    I wish someone thought I was a young mother.

    Yes, I wore pantyhose again today, as usual. But, honestly, I see pantyhose almost like hats or gloves. These used to be considered “dressed up” and those who grew up with that idea were appalled when the “younger generation” got so casual. I think with them it’s not about “dressing down” as much as it is that they are simply out of style.

    I make my choir girls (ages 12-17) wear hose when they perform, but NONE of them even had a single pair when they bought them. In fact, some of them didn’t wear them because their mothers thought hose were too mature and SEXY to for a young girl to wear.

  • SilverRain June 25, 2007, 4:46 am

    Sorry, everyone. I wasn’t trying to call anyone Pharisaical, though that is certainly what it sounded like. I suppose I was just trying to say that for me it is too easy to start watching what everyone else wears and judging them for it, that for me I felt that I was starting to lean too much that way. That feeling is completely different than discussing what one should allow one’s children to wear.

    I am having a rather down time, having just had a shouting match with my bishop yesterday. I’ve never even come close to doing anything like that before. Now, I’m feeling like I’m destined for the dark place anyways, which is why I’m feeling overwhelmed. It is not because of anything wrong with the conversation in and of itself. I just suddenly felt like I didn’t know what was right or wrong any more. It all seemed too much to worry about.

  • facethemusic June 25, 2007, 9:40 am

    Hey, Tracy. Can I wear my slippers to church? That’s what they rent out at the temples.

    Sure– go ahead Alison! I’d love to see how THAT goes over! 🙂
    You goofball.:jumping:

    Actually– I don’t think there’s a difference between “panty-hose” and “knee-highs” when it comes to being “dressed our best”. They look the same to other people, either way.
    And might I point out, I didn’t see this conversation as a means of nit-picking the way others dress, as much as I thought it was a discussion on proper Sunday dress, if even for ourselves.
    I think as Sharilee pointed out- if we’re sitting around church on Sunday, nit-picking everyone’s clothing choices, than surely, we’re not paying attention to what we’re supposed to be paying attention to. And what’s worse- the person who is dressed appropriately but is judging everyone else on what they wore to church, or the person who’s there in jeans and sneakers but is paying attention, feeling the spirit and learning something?
    That being said– certain things ARE going to distract us. We’re not blind. And someone who conscientiously dresses in what they feel is their Sunday best and reverences that, IS going to notice and might be a little more affected that those who don’t, when YM pass the sacrament in jeans, or someone who does have nice dress shoes shows up in flip-flops. I think the question is, do we notice it, then go on, or do we sit there stewing about it?
    I fully admit, that I’ve allowed myself on occasion, to stew. Mostly because I KNEW the sisters who were sitting there in pants KNEW they shouldn’t really be wearing pants, but were rationalizing things. Also because we had many new members, and even Young women who always wore dresses, but shortly after, ALSO started wearing pants– I’m sure because they saw others doing it week after week and started doing it themselves. When I see adults making decisions that start to negatively influence the youth I really start having a hard time.
    And I admit that I begin to lose my patience and sometimes let myself get distracted by things like this. It’s at those times that I struggle thinking “How do I balance this? Dress IS important, otherwise the church wouldn’t make such an effort in speaking about it.
    On the otherhand, people are progressing, we’re all at different levels, and for heaven’s sake, we’re talking about a woman wearing pants to church, she’s not killing anyone. She’s a good person, with a good heart — so what, she’s being a little lazy. We all do that. And yes, she gave the RS lesson in leggings and sneakers like she was at the gym, and she has plenty of dresses. She said she didn’t have time to iron. But hello? You’re pants aren’t ironed either. So why didn’t you just where the dress? On the other hand it was a good lesson, even in pants and sneakers. On the other hand, my young women see her doing this, and now THEY think it’s okay to wear pants to church. What she’s doing is negatively affecting others.” I feel like Tevia– sometimes I want to shout “There is no other hand!”

  • mlinford June 25, 2007, 12:20 pm

    Hey girlfriend, what happened? Do you feel like talking about it? I’m worried about you!

  • SilverRain June 25, 2007, 1:02 pm

    I would love to talk about it, but I worry that I’m just looking for affirmation. Truth is, I just don’t know what to think any more, about myself most particularly. Maybe I’ll get over my ‘phone phobia and call? It’s certainly not something I want to write about.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 25, 2007, 1:18 pm

    Hey, Kirsi, you sound really beat down. Are you OK? You know what, I just live in Eagle Mountain. Do you need a friend over there? Aren’t you just across the lake from me, or am I misremembering? Seriously. My husband and two of the kids left for trek this week. Do you need a friend in the real world? I would be happy to drop by. I’ll be out there tomorrow. Or you could come here! 🙂 I love visitors. You can help me organize my pantry…or just talk me through it.

    BTW, I’m sincere about this. I’m not nice enough to ever offer something I wouldn’t be totally pleased to do. Take me up on it. Kay? I hate phones. Dumb thing to be afraid of, but I’d rather do anything than talk on the phone. But I love people.

    :::::that still small voice is saying “do it, do it, do it”:::::

    Is is blasphemy to impersonate the Holy Ghost??? :-0

  • mlinford June 25, 2007, 3:27 pm

    I would love it if you would call. 🙂

  • hsmom4 June 25, 2007, 3:45 pm

    The little ad link on the side of this thread said, “Trendy Long Denim Skirts!” Maybe they aren’t dressy enough, but they are cute!

  • SilverRain June 25, 2007, 4:59 pm

    I’m up in West Valley City. (Is it bad that I had to look up where Eagle Mountain is?) I’d love to come visit, but the earliest I could would be the weekend, and I’m not sure what “the Plans” are this weekend.

    You made me cry (in the good way,) Alison. Thanks for being concerned. I think I’m just trying to do too much. And I’m worried about my future. I’m embarrassed to be having such a rough time lately. I feel like a whiner. I’ll be okay, though. One way or another, I’ll get through it. There are billions of people with far worse problems (though that thought doesn’t really cheer me up, y’know?) And I fully understand about the ‘phone. I’m the same way. It’s strictly for business.

  • SilverRain June 25, 2007, 5:00 pm

    When I can’t find a hand to put it on, I use a foot. Then I stomp it.

  • SilverRain June 25, 2007, 5:01 pm

    Okay . . . ooh, I’m such a ‘phone chicken! I don’t want to interfere with anything important (like dinnertime.) When’s a good time for you?

  • mlinford June 25, 2007, 5:59 pm

    Do you want Me to call YOU? 🙂 We’re about ready to start the Monday nite thing, but tomorrow I should be home most of the day…anytime after noon would work.

    Or you could just come and hang out and we could chat. 🙂

  • Alison Moore Smith June 25, 2007, 6:52 pm

    Now! I didn’t mean to make you cry MORE! 🙂

    Next week I am available Monday, Tuesday, or Friday afternoons. Any of those work for you?

    You’re not a whiner and you shouldn’t be embarrassed. We all have yucky times and it doesn’t matter that there are starving people in some other country, they are still difficult.

    And I’m worried about my future.

    Hey, Kirsi, what’s going on? I’m worried about you. Really. Give it up, sister. 🙁

  • SilverRain June 25, 2007, 7:00 pm

    Hanging out would be great. Whereabouts do you live again? Utah Valley, right?

  • SilverRain June 25, 2007, 7:05 pm

    I could try. It might be a little sketchy with the baby. I get off around three p.m. and I’m not sure how long it’d take me to drive.

    You’re sweet, Alison. Thank you. Don’t worry too much, I’ll get through it. Just rocky early marriage stuff, y’know? I don’t feel I can talk too much about it because my husband is really a good man, despite our occasional conflict and the whole marriage loyalty thing. I just was hoping for some support from people that I know I won’t get. I’ll have to tell you that whole story when I’m not online.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 25, 2007, 9:31 pm

    You are welcome here with the bunchkin. Just give me the word. Sorry for the difficulties. 🙁

  • mlinford June 25, 2007, 9:47 pm

    Yup, I’m in Orem, close to the mouth of Provo Canyon.

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 5:00 am

    Thank you, Alison. I really hope I can make it out there at some point. I’d love to meet you.

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 5:00 am

    Not too far from where my Grandpa lived. He was on 1100 S and Main.

    Thanks, Michelle for your concern. I really want to meet you at some point.

  • daisy June 26, 2007, 9:54 am

    This past week I joined my husband for church services at Wendover(it’s his national gaurd summer camp and they train on the dessert every year). It was held in an upper meeting room of a casino.
    For those of you unfamiliar with Wendover it’s about a mile long stretch of road with nothing but casinos surrounded by dessert and salt flats, nothing else, except for a few low cost housing developmements to house the workers that work there.

    He told me in advance that there would be a non-denominational meeting followed by the blessing of the sacrement for LDS members and that the dress was casual. He had a bit of an argument from me. I’m not sure I can take the sacrement in jeans and I don’t own dress pants. He made it clear that I would be over dressed if I wore a dress.

    I managed to find a pair of casual pants – not jeans, — to wear and 8:30 in the morning us and about 15 other members of his unit met upstairs of the Nugget hotel and casino for church.

    The company’s chaplain did a terrific job, great message. The 15 of us, (not a choir member in the bunch) did our very best at singing –Because I Have Been Given Much and several other favorites — and the sacrement was blessed and passed. It was very spiritual. My husband has been in the gaurd for 25 years and once a month they have a small service like this on their guard weekend. this was the first one I’ve had the opportunity to attend. I’ve been missing out.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 12:08 pm

    Does this mean you don’t want to come over? 😥

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 12:46 pm

    Good, heavens, no! It’s just a time issue. I don’t know when I can take the hour long drive each way on a weekday. (Not to mention the gasoline is pinching.) Let me see if I can work something out. It might be easier once I get a new job and can stop interviewing in the afternoons.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 1:35 pm

    Hm. For some reason I thought you were in Utah County ??? Where do you live?

  • Diana June 26, 2007, 1:56 pm

    I have a question that is somewhat off the subject but I wanted your opinions on the matter. Because of a new calling, I’ve been at out ward house on Tuesday nights lately, the same night our bishopric holds regular interviews as well as temple interviews. I’ve been surprised to see how many people walking out of the bishops office wearing jeans (both men and women). I’m 36, so I’m not old but I’m not young either… but I grew up having it instilled in me that you wear a dress/skirt whenever you meet with the bishop or his counselors, even if it’s only for a 10 minutes interview (keep in mind that the bishop always has a suit on). Do I just live in a very casual ward or has anyone else noticed the same thing? Is it even important to wear church-appropriate clothing to an interview/meeting with the bishop? I very well could be a fuddy-duddy on the issue because I also distinctively remember as I was growing up my mom and her partners would always always wear dresses (with nylons! lol) when they went visiting teaching.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 2:13 pm

    I’m your age, and I usually wear a skirt to VT and I always aim to wear a dress to interviews, so add me to the fuddyduddy list. 🙂 I think these are examples of things that are personal choice, not written policies.

  • Rebecca June 26, 2007, 2:18 pm

    I have been told by numerous Bishops and Stake Presidents that wearing Sunday attire to an interview is something you are supposed to do. I don’t know if that is policy but that is what we have been instructed in the wards and stakes in the area that I live in.

  • Rachel June 26, 2007, 3:59 pm

    Okay, am I missing the boat? A dress to go visiting teaching?! I would feel uncomfortable trying to be friends with someone, going into their home with the assumption we are supposed to be friends, dressed up like I would be for church. I’m truly interested, though: do you dress up for your visiting teachers to come visit you?

    I know I’ve grown up in a casual generation–no one my age (besides me) ever wore nylons that I can remember. Ever. But I don’t remember my mom getting dressed up to go visiting teaching. Come to think of it, I don’t remember what my mom wore going visiting teaching . . . she’s pretty proper, though, so if anyone wears a dress to go visiting teaching, it would be her.

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 4:59 pm

    I’m in West Valley City. I can probably come down and visit some time, it just won’t be soon.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 5:48 pm

    Rachel, I’m anything but “proper,” FWIW. I’m a really casual person by nature. It’s just something I have done for a while, in a casual way. I don’t fully “dress up” per se (no nylons, for example). Please don’t be critical of my individual decision. I don’t approach VTing with a distant coldness. I just take it seriously and this for me is a way to remind myself of that. When men act in their priesthood responsibilities, I think they are encouraged to dress the part. What’s wrong with doing that as a sister? But by the same token, there is no boat to miss. This is just what *I* have done and I’m not saying anyone else *should* do it.

    But if it helps you any, I hardly know anyone who does this, so again, I am not saying that it’s what people “should” do, it’s just something I do. And, I don’t do it always. The last thing I want is for someone to feel uncomfortable. My companion comes in her nice dressy work clothes, so it’s not that big of a deal. I’d look a little out of place with her in jeans or something super casual anyway.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 5:49 pm

    Then I hope you will reconsider a phone call. 🙂 Or I could come up to you if that would work better. No pressure, though. Just want to be able to chat beyond the ‘puter. 🙂

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 5:55 pm

    If you could come visit me, that would be great. My home is small and a bit messy since we still haven’t figured out the lack of storage thing, but you are welcome if you’re serious about coming up here.

  • mollymormon June 26, 2007, 6:09 pm

    Our stake presidency sent out a letter saying you should wear Sunday best for temple interviews.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 6:14 pm

    I AM serious, and messy is just like home, so that is no big deal (I would have been making the same disclaimer to you, if I hadn’t already!)

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 6:38 pm

    Let me know when you can come and I’ll send you my address. I’d love so much to meet you. You’re such a good friend.

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 6:39 pm

    I can’t remember if I ever thought of it. I usually dressed up, but I don’t know if I ever thought about it. It was just a formal setting, so I did it. As far as visiting teaching goes, I dress up without thinking about it.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 9:07 pm

    The question I have now is are you up to having all of my children come, too? 🙂 If not, we could figure out an evening time?

  • SilverRain June 26, 2007, 9:15 pm

    Of course. I have mostly baby toys, though. And an XBox, but not the best kids games. My front yard is safe, but my backyard is highly scary due to lack of a working water system, so you might want to have them bring stuff to do.

  • mlinford June 26, 2007, 11:54 pm

    Another option might be to meet at the temple some Saturday?

    I want to come yesterday! 🙂 It will probably have to wait until after the 4th…my parents get home from three years in So. America next Tuesday so I’m pretty much out of commission next week. But the next week might be a good one…would that work for you?

    I’m also wondering what you would think of an evening getaway…maybe we could go grab some ice cream or something and give ourselves a break. ?? (My treat!) Thoughts? I’m in brainstorming mode. 🙂

  • SilverRain June 27, 2007, 4:44 am

    That would be great (to all of the above.) The temple trip would be sooo fun (I could leave the baby with my husband.) Maybe we could do that and then go out for ice cream afterwards?

  • Rachel June 27, 2007, 8:50 am

    Mlinford, I didn’t mean to attack you. I was reacting too strongly. I do put on nice clothes (khakis and a nice top or something nicer than what I chase my kids in) and do my hair and makeup to go VT, so I guess I can identify with putting on something nice. Usually, with the people we actually get in to see, we visit other SAHMs and it ends up being kind of a playdate, much less formal than sitting peacefully and discussing gospel topics (although we do have a message, it’s just is shorter than it could be). And I realized after I wrote the post that some women who have visited me have dressed up, and I never thought about it one bit. I understand wanting to take your assignment as a VT seriously. I think we’re just at different points of progression: I’m just trying my best to make appointments for VT. When I master that, I may be at a point where I’m ready to meet my companion ahead instead of meeting at our appointment. Somewhere down the road may be dressing up, much like, as you mentioned, the priesthood holders wear their suits to give a blessing, etc. I was feeling insecure about my capabilities as a VT, and I apologize if I was judging based on my own insecurities.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 27, 2007, 11:17 am

    I would like to add a thought here. Sometimes in these discussions we come down to the idea that there is a specific ideal that we all just aren’t yet living up to but, maybe, perhaps, hopefully can achieve someday. Even though we aren’t good enough, progressed enough, spiritual enough to do it yet.

    The problem I see in this is that sometimes this supposed ideal has been defined by someone with no authority to define it and, in fact, it’s not necessarily a VALID ideal. It might work for some, but it not necessarily something we should all strive to do.

    I was talking to Rebecca (in real life) on Monday, and she made some great points that really got me thinking about how LDS women get overwhelmed. I think this is one significant way we do that.

    For example, I don’t think I believe that wearing a dress, hose, and heels is somehow the ideal visiting teaching dress standard that I should be striving to “someday” reach. I certainly don’t mind if someone else does it. But I do mind that preference being presented as something that we *should* try to do at some point, if we can only progress that far.

    There are lots of things in LDS culture that mirror that. As another example, I believe own of my DUTIES is to make sure that my family has nutritious food every day. I do NOT, however, believe that there is some prescribed means by which I must (or SHOULD) meet that end if I am to be considered a “good LDS woman.” And I don’t believe there is some method that is the most righteous. I don’t think I need to create gourmet menus entirely from scratch in order to “do the right thing.” I don’t think that is somehow the “ideal” that I hope to one day achieve. If you like doing that to meet the obligation, so be it, but I don’t think that needs to be something for me to strive for, no matter how righteous I become.

    I see Rachel’s post as very typical of someone who hears something that they feel they aren’t living up to. She feels that, gosh, I barely get my VTing done at all. Maybe when I “progress” enough, I can do those “better, more pious” things. So, even though she IS doing what she needs to do, she feels that her effort isn’t meeting some (what I would call) ill-defined ideal.

    Truth is, the women she teaches are probably FAR better served by another mom, casually playing with the kids and chatting, then they would be by someone who makes sure they have on pantyhose. In fact, dressing up to that extent might even make the casual mom feel like a schmuck.

    I guess it relates a bit to the prayer issue. We have, I think, enough ideals that ARE specifically outlined for us. Do we need to impose more on other members of the church?

  • agardner June 27, 2007, 11:39 am

    Alison, is it really my duty to put a healthy meal on the table? Man, I am in big trouble!! 🙂

  • mlinford June 27, 2007, 12:28 pm

    That’s my vote! I just feel that I would like to be able to actually TALK to you and if I bring my kids, as cute as they are, that might be a little tough. 🙂

  • Alison Moore Smith June 27, 2007, 12:47 pm

    agardner, is it the put, the healthy, the meal, or the table part that you’re struggling with? 🙂

  • mlinford June 27, 2007, 12:55 pm

    I’m just trying my best to make appointments for VT. When I master that, I may be at a point where I’m ready to meet my companion ahead instead of meeting at our appointment. Somewhere down the road may be dressing up, much like, as you mentioned, the priesthood holders wear their suits to give a blessing, etc. I was feeling insecure about my capabilities as a VT, and I apologize if I was judging based on my own insecurities.

    Rachel, I totally understand. I’m a flaky visiting teacher, so I myself have a LOT to work on.

    Alison, you have addressed some things that I have been thinking about A LOT, particularly as relates to motherhood. It’s awfully hard to know when we are “enough” when there are sooooo many voices that want to tell us (including the voices in our own heads) what we “should” be doing.

    I see Rachel’s post as very typical of someone who hears something that they feel they aren’t living up to. She feels that, gosh, I barely get my VTing done at all. Maybe when I “progress” enough, I can do those “better, more pious” things. So, even though she IS doing what she needs to do, she feels that her effort isn’t meeting some (what I would call) ill-defined ideal.

    I understand this feeling, because I feel it often. But at the same time, please note that in this specific situation I made it very clear that I wasn’t trying to impose my ideal on anyone else. I was sharing what I do sometimes (not something I always do, BTW).

    I sometimes feel overwhelmed when homeschooling moms talk about what they do. I wonder if I’m a good enough mom because I don’t homeschool. But does that mean that all homeschooling moms can’t or shouldnt’ share what they do? I think it’s important to realize that we can share what we do without trying to impose ideals on someone else.

    So, Alison, I think you raise important issues, but I also think it’s very important for us each to recognize when it’s WE who are translating someone’s sharing into an unnecessary “ideal” that causes us to doubt ourselves. Just because someone shares something doesn’t mean that they are saying everyone else needs to do what they do. (I feel overwhelmed when women talk about homeschooling, but does that mean I would homeschool if I were a better mom, or that y’all who homeschool think I should? I would think not.)

    And I appreciated Rachel’s response, helping me understand that she feels overwhelmed. FWIW, so do I. I have done a poor job at VTing…not consistent, not early enough, etc. I feel overwhelemed in a lot of ways, but at some point, I have to realize that it’s my responsibility to sort through all I hear and figure out with the Lord what He expects and wants from me. I don’t think He wants us to adopt arbitrary external actions just cuz. He wants us to do things that bring us closer to Him. Beyond the things that are prescribed for all of us, there is plenty of room for individual adaptation and growth and interpretation. But I think we ought to be able to share with each other, too, without people thinking that we are somehow saying this is an ideal everyone needs to adopt.

  • mlinford June 27, 2007, 12:57 pm

    agardner, is it the put, the healthy, the meal, or the table part that you’re struggling with

    wahahaha 🙂

  • facethemusic June 27, 2007, 1:01 pm

    Shucks… there goes my plan for hot dogs and mac and cheese….:)

    I think appropriate VT dress is best determined by the Visiting teacher, depending on whom she’s visiting and under what circumstances.
    When I was first married and called as a Visiting Teacher, I ALWAYS wore Sunday clothes. Honestly, because my mother always did, and I just thought that’s what we were supposed to do.
    But I admit, I’ve begun to dress more casually, going in whatever I happen to be wearing that day. (Unless of course, I’ve been digging in the garden and NEED to change.)
    Mostly, it’s because I’m rushing from one thing to another in order to get my VT’ing done at all. I cut shopping trips short, we leave the park early, I’m trying to fit the appointments in between getting off work (where we wear tan pants) and the time I have to pick the kids up from school, etc. It’s just a matter of reality and practicality really.
    If I was doing my Visiting Teaching on Sunday, then yes, I’d just wear the dress I was already in. Our Home Teachers throughout the years, when they DID come, almost always came on Sunday. So naturally, they were still in their Sunday clothes. But I’ve always done Visiting Teaching during the week.
    But, I first started wearing casual clothes, when I really started to make an effort to visit the inactive sisters on my list. One of the inactive sisters I taught was really good friends with another sister at church. The active sister informed me that the inactive sister felt intimidated when I came and one of the reasons was because I was “dressed up– like she’s there to preach at me. It’s my living room, not the chapel.” So I made sure to dress more casually when I visited her. (Which meant that I visited the sisters right before and after her with casual clothes, too)
    Since first hearing that, I’ve actually similar things quite a few times, even from active sisters.
    I remember during a Visiting teaching conference, this very thing was discussed. One sister said that when her VT’s came dressed like they were going to church, it made her feel “underdressed in her own home”. She said it made her feel obligated to dress up too, and she didn’t want to feel like she had to get all dressed up just because her Visiting teachers were coming over, that it made it more of a burden, rather than a nice visit with a friend.
    I certainly don’t think that there’s anything “wrong” with wearing a dress or skirt for VT’ing. I did so for years.
    It does show a reverence for the calling, and I understand that some women would feel uncomfortable going in jeans or other casual clothing. On the other hand, we all understand that you don’t have to be wearing a dress to be reverent, to say a prayer or give a short VT lesson.
    I say that you do what you feel is the best thing to do– and that may depend who and when you’re visiting.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 27, 2007, 1:11 pm

    FWIW, Michelle, I wasn’t indicting your post or even Rachel’s response. Her response just reminded me of the discussion with Rebecca and I think it goes to the heart of what we were discussing. My post wasn’t meant to point out a problem in your post or anyone else’s. I agree that we need to be careful on both side (1) not to interpret others preferences as requirements for us and (2) not to interpret our own preferences as requirements for others.

  • mlinford June 27, 2007, 1:15 pm

    Thanks, Alison. I agree. These are such important points which I have been thinking about a lot. I think this is all a real challenge for us as women….sorting through the clutter of voices to find what is sufficient and necessary in our lives.

  • mlinford June 27, 2007, 1:22 pm

    To their credit, they do all seem to love most any veggie I’ll put out

    That in and of itself is a major coup as far as I’m concerned.

    I hear you on the food groups thing. One of my children is in the milk, cereal and chicken nuggets club. But she does like pizza. 🙂

  • Alison Moore Smith June 27, 2007, 1:38 pm

    Mostly it’s the “healthy”.

    OK, then, yea, I do think the healthy is the part we are obligated to. I don’t think you have to set it there yourself, or make it, or eat it at a table, but I do think it should be healthy.

    Way back when I was a starry-eyed newlywed and new mom, my kids ate the most amazing things.

    But I never said “amazing.”

    Following advice from women’s magazines and my own mom, I would put it on the table anyway, figuring if she was hungry enough she’d eventually eat it. Not so.

    Now, I’m not calling you a liar (!!!), but I have never seen a child with available food starve themselves to death.

    Who doesn’t like pizza??

    I didn’t until I was an adult. Yuck. All those different, spicy flavors mixed together (back in the day pizza was pretty much always “supreme”). Now I much prefer plain cheese to anything else.

    But most nights they are still asking, “Mom, can we have chicken nuggets and fries for dinner”? BTW, I rarely give them any of those favorites for dinner, although we do for lunch sometimes.

    FWIW, I would say you ARE doing a good job of this. You set out healthy stuff and they eat SOME of the healthy things. What’s wrong with that? The don’t have to love pork chops with a particular spice mix to be healthy, right?

    I think the problem comes from having kids who love chicken nuggets, fries, and hot dogs–and so we feed them only (or mostly) nuggets, fries, and hot dogs.

  • Rachel June 27, 2007, 1:47 pm

    Posted By: Alison Moore SmithNow, I’m not calling you a liar (!!!), but I have never seen a child with available food starve themselves to death.

    My kids don’t starve themselves to death, but going to bed having not eaten a single bite of dinner is a multiple-times-a-week occurance at our house. I live by the mantra: I will only make one dinner a night and I will only make it once. But it is one of the hardest things I do. And my oldest, 4-year-old Isaiah, often complains that he is hungry. He is offered his leftovers from dinner, and every time he chooses to go to bed hungry rather than eat what I make. I constantly worry that I will be reported to social services because my kids are very skinny, but the doctor says they’re healthy enough. I actually nearly cried when Isaiah took a bite of his pork chop at dinner two nights ago, it made me so thrilled.

    And so, we have chicken nuggets for dinner sometimes. Or hot dogs. Just so I can enjoy watching my children actually eat dinner.

    Disclaimer: There is no emotionally laden message behind this post. The comment about not starving to death just made me want to share my own experience. 🙂

  • agardner June 27, 2007, 2:18 pm

    True, mine do eat enough to survive. They do eat lots of fruits and veggies.

    I guess I just get frustrated with them not trying new things. But no, they aren’t going to be blowing away anytime soon.

    They have gone to bed hungry before because they wouldn’t eat any of the dinner choices (similar to Rachel’s situation), but they will eat at least part of the meal (maybe even the most healthy part) so I should take what I can get!

  • Alison Moore Smith June 27, 2007, 2:27 pm

    Posted By: RachelHe is offered his leftovers from dinner, and every time he chooses to go to bed hungry rather than eat what I make.

    I honestly just assume that kids who won’t eat, aren’t really hungry. And I tell them that.

    I allow them to have preferences. We eat a LOT of salad, for example, and my kids don’t usually like salads until they are about…oh…eight or nine. Fine, because there are other healthy choices at the meal. But if they are doing it as a power play or holding out to fill up on something that isn’t healthy, I usually “let” them be “full” and then they can have their dinner leftovers for breakfast.

  • Rachel June 27, 2007, 2:57 pm

    I say the same thing to Isaiah, Alison 🙂 “Well, I figured you weren’t hungry because you didn’t eat your dinner . . . ” All the while listening to him whine, “I hate this kind of food, Mom! This is grown up food.”

    I will admit, I do sometimes go to great lengths to make sure there is one thing my children like at dinner, be it corn or rolls or whatever. And then the food they “like” is snubbed.

    It takes quite a bit for me to be mature and remember that they are not trying to make me feel bad, they are little and don’t realize that I just spent quite a bit of time and energy making whatever it is that they refuse to eat. And that I did it while tending to their needs (“Momma, drink please!” “Mom, I’m the fire guy and you’re the water guy and I’m going to burn you up . . . ” “Fireball” crashes into the food I’m preparing, scattering it all over the kitchen. “Momma, draw please?” As I get the markers and crayons to keep them busy. “Mom, why can’t I play with friends? I don’t have anyone to play with. I wish I could play with . . . ” As I clean the marker and crayon off the table so I can set it for dinner. “Momma, want cheese. Dinner time?” “Yuck, Mom, I don’t like that stuff. I want hotdogs for dinner. I know, can we go to Chinese?”). But sometimes I want to whine back at them, “I don’t like your attitude! It’s yucky, I won’t take it. I won’t I won’t I won’t!”

    Sigh. Some day in the not too distant future (only about four years or so), Isaiah will be put in the dinner rotation, and he can figure out how to make a healthy meal that everyone likes from what we have in the pantry. I can hardly wait.

  • SilverRain June 27, 2007, 4:19 pm

    My daughter’s birthday is on the fifth of July. I was thinking of taking her to Liberty Park (they have some water toys and swingsets and suchlike. That’s also an option that your kids could easily come to.

  • SilverRain June 27, 2007, 4:31 pm

    I was a very picky eater when I was little. (I’m still a bit picky, not that you could tell by looking at me!) I remember my parents forcing me to eat Rice-a-Roni (which the smell of still gives me a gag reflex to this day.) Yet, they made Rice-a-Roni knowing I wouldn’t/couldn’t eat it. I remember one time I was offered only the same Rice-a-Roni for two and a half days until it went bad. I still wouldn’t eat it. Eventually, my parents adopted a smiley-face program where I got a smiley on the calendar every day I ate my dinner. When I got six smilies in a row, I got to pick my dinner. If I didn’t eat my dinner, I got a Mr. Yuck sticker. After some time, I was able to get an entire month of smilies. Go me! (I still got Mr. Yucks for the Rice-a-Roni, though.)

    My point is that the smiley-face method was far more effective in motivating me to eat than forcing me to eat or offering only that food until I would eat it. It turned food into a contest of wills. I don’t think that eating should ever be a battle or something the child has to develop stubbornness over. Therefore, I’ve decided that once they get old enough, if they don’t want what I fixed, they can make themselves a peanut butter sandwich (or something similar that they’ll eat.) But they won’t get a smiley for that day. 🙂

  • mollymormon June 27, 2007, 11:05 pm

    I had an extremely picky eater – only carbs (pizza, pasta, bread etc) and the occasional veggie for the first 8 years of life. I finally found out that those were the very things she was allergic to (gluten) and it was making her so sick. The amazing thing is that I thought she’d starve if I took away all those from her. But she didn’t. And she felt much better. The point is that the only way I could get her to eat anything else was to stop buying the things she shouldn’t have. It’s been three years now, and I’m amazed at the good foods she’ll eat! I did tell her that if what the rest of the family was eating was gluten-free, she’d have to eat it or nothing. If it wasn’t, she could pick from a pre-approved list of foods. Sometimes I’d add a little gluten to something I knew she didn’t like just to avoid the battle, lol!

    I’ve been trying to gradually move away from processed foods for health reasons. I had no idea how much we bought that was processed (yeah, probably 75%!) We used to go through crackers like crazy, and when I stopped buying them, the kids would ask and ask for them, but eventually they forgot all about them. They rarely ask for those foods I don’t buy any more. I just had to have healthy snacks (like fruits/veggies, cheese, peanut butter balls, toast, etc) on the ready, even if they had previously said they didn’t like them. The kids eat almost everything I give them now. Well, except the just-turned-4 year old. She’s still in that pretty picky state. But she’s certainly not starving and no one else is either. BTW, I still have a ways to go on the avoidance of processed foods… cutting out cold cereal is stinkin’ hard!

  • agardner June 28, 2007, 7:18 am

    Molly, you are a very wise woman. I am trying to do the same thing as you with the processed foods (I know I feel a lot better when I’m not eating them, so that tells me my kids probably do too!), but it is difficult when that’s what they want to eat.

  • mlinford June 29, 2007, 2:08 pm

    Fifth of July will probably be tough given the way my week will be next week (parents home after three years in S. Amer., four of hubby’s eight siblings and fams in town…gonna be maxed out! But that sounds like it could have been fun. Thanks for the invite anyway. Maybe a temple trip in a couple of weeks? Let’s schedule a time so we can aim toward it, eh? 🙂

  • SilverRain June 29, 2007, 4:20 pm

    Next weekend should be good for me. I’d have to see about weekends after that, things get difficult to plan that far ahead.

  • mollymormon June 29, 2007, 11:12 pm

    It’s true. It’s really really hard. I’m not sure how wise I am, but when everyone is always complaining about feeling crappy, you get desperate. 😉 And even once I’ve got them converted over to the healthy homemade stuff, I still struggle keeping it readily available! And can I just tell you my kids generally eat two popsicles a day in the summer? Healthy homemade ones, of course, but currently we’ve run out and it’s been annoying the kids. Luckily we have 30lbs of cherries on the counter right now.

  • mlinford June 30, 2007, 3:08 am

    Well, it’s a good thing that we didn’t plan on the fifth. I just found out today that my uncle passed away and his funeral will be that day. (It was not a complete surprise. He’s been sick for a long time. The hardest part is that his teenage daughter was the one who found him. Hard.)

    So it looks like I will be in SL or further north every day next week except Monday. Maybe we should have planned something that day to round out the week?

    Let’s tentatively plan on the 14th. I will check with hubby to see if that will work. 🙂

  • SilverRain June 30, 2007, 5:39 am

    Oh, no! I’m sorry to hear that, Michelle.

    The 14th sounds like a good tentative. I’ll check with my husband, too.

  • Lewis_Family June 30, 2007, 6:21 pm

    Where do I sign up to be on the recieving end of those homemade popsicles? Since being pregnant, a lot of foods have been turning me off, I have yet to barf, but get naseous ( can’t spell ) quite often at the smells or even thoughts of certain foods, but when you said homemade cherry pops, that sounded great 🙂

  • Alison Moore Smith June 30, 2007, 10:22 pm

    You’re expecting, Lewis? (Did we know that??? :shamed:) Congrats!!!

  • heather June 30, 2007, 10:41 pm

    I don’t know you yet Lewis, but Congratulations!!! Each little one is such a special miracle. How many now?

  • Lewis_Family July 1, 2007, 9:44 am

    No, I guess I hadn’t announced it yet, sorry. It will be number two, my first is 21 months and this one is due in February, we wanted them to be 2-2.5 years apart. But yeah thanks everyone 🙂

  • Sharilee10 July 1, 2007, 10:17 am

    Congrats, Lewis– and good luck with the eating and nausea!!

    they eat them. But if I make spaghetti they’ll eat only the noodles . . . won’t have anything to do with sauce.

    What is the deal with sauce!?! My youngest is like that and it drives me crazy! My kids weren’t allowed to be picky eaters (and I thought it was because of my excellent parenting methods, of course!) until my youngest came along. Well— my daughter used food to have a daily power struggle with her father, but I was sure that was because of his control issues and failure to allow me to apply my excellent parenting methods.

    My youngest son will have nothing to do with sauce. If sauce has come within 6 inches of his plate he won’t touch anything on it. He has even started eating food and someone will say something about the sauce and he is done for good. It drives me crazy. I have tried all of the methods above– saving for the next meal, dessert only for those who ate their dinner, even withholding privileges like tv (which really has nothing to do with food— I was desperate!). I have finally just learned to fix his food with NO SAUCE. He eats a plate of spaghetti noodles while the rest of us eat spaghetti, etc. Whatever!!

    Since he is ‘allowed’ to be picky, my daughter picked up on it again, too. Now— no matter what I fix— one child won’t eat it. Oh well— my two older boys will gratefully eat anything I put in front of them and thank me profusely for whatever it is, so I cook dinner for them and let the other two eat what they’ll eat and fix a pb&j or quesadillo if they don’t like anything. This month while they are gone is heaven— I’m living on yogurt, cottage cheese, and Honey Bunches of Oats. Are the heatlhy cold cereals still considered bad for you? (Please say No, oh please say No!) 🙂

  • Alison Moore Smith July 1, 2007, 12:18 pm

    I have an uncle (now in his 70’s) who won’t eat anything red. Truth. Every family dinner his wife would make one dish for everyone and another with all red items removed. I think that should have been resolved about seven decades ago.

  • mlinford July 9, 2007, 11:55 am

    Well, after I got home last week from the big parental homecoming events, I realized that the 14th might end up not working because my sister will still be in town and we are trying to get as many activities in with everyone before she goes. But I thought I would wait until and if something actually materialized for the 14th (because I really am looking forward to this temple trip!)…but now it appears that Saturday may be the only time I get to party with my sister and her hubby (whose bday we are planning to celebrate Saturday). I feel rotten asking if we can switch to the 21st, but I really think I need to be there.

    The other option would be to go later that evening, when I imagine my family might leave to go back north. (Since the temple is open until 8:00 p.m. that might work if it would work for you.)

    Whaddya think?

  • SilverRain July 9, 2007, 5:12 pm

    The 21st would actually be better for me, too. That should work out swimmingly!

  • delmar June 17, 2008, 9:39 pm

    For some odd reason I thought this was a new post. Boy am I late.

    Since my auto accident last August and having to re-learn the art of walking….I’ve been wearing ballet flats in the winter and now flip-flops in the spring and summer. Hopefully I haven’t offended anyone. Yikes.

    In my old ward a denim skirt or jumper was totally fine, in our new ward I haven’t seen a single women in a denim skirt yet. Uh oh…will I be the first one this weekend? Too bad! I’m preggo and my church clothes are starting to make me look like a whale….oh and my ever blossoming bosom is no longer allowing buttons to close properly so they will get my pretty silky maternity shirts over my denim skirt.

    I have a horrible scar just behind my knee from the accident/surgery. I haven’t worn nylons or tights since last August because it rubs the scar and itches horribly. I honestly tried tights in the winter once and they were the worst thing ever! I wonder how white knee highs will be for the temple in July? Do I have to wear them?

  • Alison Moore Smith June 17, 2008, 10:30 pm


  • nanacarol June 17, 2008, 10:41 pm

    Are you sure Alison? I questioned this once and was told yes they were!!!! I am sure again that it is a Temple Pres. thing. Delmar-just be prepared!

  • delmar June 17, 2008, 11:19 pm

    ok i’m a huge dork. i read the chipmunk post and then followed the church light & casual post back to this. no wonder its an old post. i’m so preggo my brain is no longer functioning.

  • Alison Moore Smith June 18, 2008, 12:42 am

    Sorry, I totally missed the phrase about the temple. Thought you were talking about church.

    I don’t know about the temple, I think they’d give a medical exception if it is policy. If not, I’d just roll them down to where they aren’t uncomfortable.

  • Ray June 18, 2008, 9:51 am

    There are medical exceptions to most things.

    In your condition (if you live in any area where you need to call and schedule sessions), I would call the temple, schedule the session, explain what you have been told about the “normal standard” (and I would use that phrase) and explain your situation – saying “just so nobody is surprised when I get there”. If you don’t have to call ahead, I would do the exact same thing when you get there. I also would do it in the exact order I just outlined. Schedule the session (or show up) first and then explain why you aren’t dressed exactly like everyone else. It shouldn’t be any big deal.

    Take the initiative, explain your situation and hope you don’t get a clothing nazi at the desk. 😉

  • Ray June 18, 2008, 9:54 am

    One more thing:

    I used to travel a lot with a previous job. Sometimes I had meetings that fell through in a city with a temple, and occasionally I would show up for a session dressed in my work clothes. (That was usually dress slacks and either a long-sleeve, colored shirt or a polo shirt.) I simply explained my situation and was never turned away.

  • marathonermom June 18, 2008, 11:26 am

    Since this old thread got bumped, I went back and skimmed from the beginning, and I noticed that Judith Rasband came up. (On page 1, I think?) Oh man, I have tell y’all about my experience with her. A couple of years ago, the RS presidency in my stake in CO had her come out to do a big presentation for the women in the stake. When she started, she asked for a volunteer in the audience to help her keep track of her time so she didn’t go too long. She had this whole series of signals: do this when I’ve got 10 minutes, do this when 5, do this when the time’s up. Then she proceeded to speak for two and a half hours. Two. And. A. Half. HOURS. I watched the designated timekeeper give all the signals, then give the “time’s up” signal again. And again. And again, more insistently. And get up with her two daughters and leave the cultural hall.

    The hall was miserably overheated, the presentation was. . . less than riveting, shall we say? She showed slides to illustrate how the fashion industry leads us down a slippery slope of increasing casualness and decreasing modesty. Okay, I’m not disagreeing with that, but you know what? We got it after about 2 slides, and she must have showed, oh I don’t know, it felt like 200 but was probably 50-60. Her tone was condescending, the fashions she brought to model were way too mature for the majority of the audience, and she showed us every single piece of clothing she had hanging on an about 8-foot clothes rack, along with commentary on its purpose and how it could be worn with other items on the rack. The audience went from interested, to tolerant, to bored, to looking downright hostile at being held captive so long, and she just. kept. talking.

    I would have left, as several other women did–normally I think that’s rude, but I felt the speaker was being exceptionally rude by going over her allotted time by more than an hour–but I had been asked to sing “You’re Never Fully Dressed Without a Smile” at the end. (A special request from Sis. Rasband.) I had my newborn daughter with me, whom I was nursing, and I had fed her shortly before the meeting so that she’d be happy for the whole program. That would have worked, if the speaker had stayed within her allotted time. Since she didn’t, my baby started to fuss, and I held her off as long as I could, but she got more and more insistent, so I ducked out into the hallway to give her a quick feeding. I stayed within earshot so I could hear when it was over. Sis. Rasband must have said “And finally. . .” or “In conclusion. . .” three or four times, and each time I’d hurriedly dislodge my little girl, hand her to a girlfriend, and sneak back into the cultural hall, only to hear her ramble on for another 5 or 10 minutes before I figured out that she had no intention of actually stopping, so I’d better get back out and finish feeding my now-frantic child. When she finally finished, the audience’s relief was palpable. But you should have seen the looks on their faces when it was announced that before they could have the prayer and everyone could leave, there would be a special musical number! Not the most receptive audience I’ve ever performed for. I should have left when I had the chance!

  • Alison Moore Smith June 18, 2008, 6:05 pm

    Ray, a good friend of mine used to do the same thing, except that his “work attire” was jeans, a polo, and tennis shoes. He was a sports writer.

    BTW, when he died he was buried in his temple clothes ?and his Nikes.

    marathoner, I am just dying from your story. Suffice it to say that if she’s invited back to Education Week (WHY???), I won’t be attending.

  • jendoop June 18, 2008, 6:25 pm

    Reading over these things I’ve found another reason I’m grateful to be way out here in the east. Those at church could care less about what I’m wearing, they’re just grateful I fulfill my callings! People in our Spanish branch wear just about everything imaginable.

    Clothing is so difficult- in the last two years I’ve been pregnant, nursing, losing baby weight, now ill and losing weight with sporadic steroids (prescribed my MD) which make me swell- with all that I don’t remember what a well fitting piece of clothing feels like (not to mention baby pulling and wrestling). Some days my garments show because my clothes are too loose, and yes I even have days that I don’t have the best judgement and wear something too tight. Back to that overwhelmed and head spinning situation but I’m still trying. This thread will remind me not to wear the ‘maybe too tight’ next time.

    I did have a young mother comment to me that it was OK her shirts were too short in back because her garments covered her skin. It made me ????

  • naomlette June 19, 2008, 2:00 am

    I think that once we are all perfected, it won’t matter what we wear to church, bishop’s offices, or VT because we will always have the right attitude and spirit with/about us. Because we will be perfect. At this point, we need all the reminders that we can get about how important something is spiritually. But I will be the first one to kick and scream if someone tells me that I can’t wear my supremly casual skirts and t-shirts to church if I have any sort of calling involving children. Or that I can’t wear my boots (not dressy, nice boots, but boots from Hot Topic :devil:). Because getting me in a dress or skirt at all is dressing up for me. I reserve my most fancy (still pretty casual by some people’s standards) for the temple to keep it more special and sacred. Besides, I always feel so pretty in my temple clothes, that I just want to continue to feel that way going to and coming from there. And I do wear my heels, because I don’t have any flats at all. :confused:

  • Tinkerbell June 19, 2008, 11:34 pm

    marathoner, what a nightmare. I admit that I even become hostile in sacrament meeting when it goes too long. After I have held my kids still and quiet for one hour and ten minutes, I decide to let them loose. Maybe that will give the speaker a hint. :devil: (ooh, I’ve always wanted to use that one – it’s my favorite).

    jendoop, I totally understand. Up, down, up, down. Big b**bs, little ones. After four kids and recently weaning #4, I am sadly unrecognizable. I never make it to church on Sunday looking “perfect”. Church clothes are particularly hard when your weight is up and down.

    During my fourth pregnancy, I started wearing white knee highs in the temple because it was easier to get them on with my big belly. I admit that my baby is almost 17 months and I am STILL wearing them. I like them. :shamed:

  • kiar June 20, 2008, 1:19 pm

    the cute little ladies that helped me pick out my temple stuff threw in knee highs. One sweetie twinkled up at me “oh these will make your life soooo much easier!”

  • delmar June 20, 2008, 3:42 pm

    theres no way in heck i could wear regular nylons right now! not only is this california and the heat is insane, but the preggo belly and nylons have never gotten along well. knee highs will have to work. i have regular nude color knee highs….i need to try them on and see how they feel on my scar so that i know white ones will be ok for the temple. kiar, are we going to match? which dress did you get? oh and joe better be off that weekend so you guys can get there!

  • kiar June 20, 2008, 5:49 pm

    I got the white one!

  • delmar June 20, 2008, 7:49 pm

    you are freaking hysterical!

  • delmar June 20, 2008, 7:50 pm

    the ones through distribution are all flower names dorfus!

  • kiar June 20, 2008, 10:51 pm

    well, I checked the tag, and all it said was Jody california. Its really simple, with a little bit of embroidery on the neck, like a v down the chest. zipper back and ties on the side.very pretty, and I thought Joe was gonna cry the first time he saw me in it. I love it!

  • Rebecca June 23, 2007, 1:50 pm

    This was in the Church News today. I thought it was interesting given the recent discussion. Here is a quote from the article.

    But when people have a choice, denim sends the wrong message when worn in sacrament meeting, Sister Rasband said. “If the intent is to be reverent, respectful and refined, then we will choose a garment of a more refined fabric, in harmony with the location and the occasion.”
    Another example, she said, is a T-shirt. Originally worn as an undergarment, T-shirts are generally comfortable and communicate a relaxed demeanor. “A white T-shirt hanging below a shorter top for the purpose of modesty appears more like underwear exposed,” she said. If T-shirts are being worn for modesty, she recommends Church members opt for a colored tee. Then she adds the same warning when wearing T-shirts to Church. “When our intent is to be reverent, respectful, refined, or invite the Spirit of God, then we will choose a more refined shirt, in harmony with the location and the occasion.”
    Finally, she said, rubber flip-flops were originally worn as public shower shoes, pool shoes or beach shoes. “The wearer simply appears undressed. Worn with day, evening, Church, or wedding clothes, flip-flops communicate that the wearer didn’t have time to dress, didn’t make time to dress, didn’t care to get dressed and/or didn’t care about refinement and respect for the people, place or occasion.” In addition, the “shuffle-slop” sound of flip-flops is distracting, she said.
    She encourages people to put a little thought and allocate some of their budget for their wardrobe. In many instances, people could buy an appropriately stocked wardrobe with the cost of what their family spends each month eating out, she said.
    In essence, Sister Rasband said, image and dress are about respect “respect for self and respect for others, respect for occasions, roles and goals.”

    Oh and I didn’t notice anything in the article that mentioned pantyhose. 😉

  • agardner June 27, 2007, 1:19 pm

    Posted By: Alison Moore Smithagardner, is it the put, the healthy, the meal, or the table part that you’re struggling with?

    lol Alison!

    Mostly it’s the “healthy”. The table part is covered, and I do make dinner most every night, so yeah, I guess it would be the healthy.

    Way back when I was a starry-eyed newlywed and new mom, my kids ate the most amazing things. My husband also likes to cook (I shouldn’t say “also” because that implies that I like it. I don’t, really), so we used to plan meals out and cook the most amazing things. Fun things with all sorts of interesting ingredients, and my kids ate them! Liked them!!

    Then the first one turned three.

    She no longer would eat most of what I made. Following advice from women’s magazines and my own mom, I would put it on the table anyway, figuring if she was hungry enough she’d eventually eat it. Not so.

    My second one is even worse, and I had completely given up by the third.

    They now think there are three food groups: Chicken nuggets, Macaroni and Cheese, and Hot Dogs. They don’t even like pizza! Who doesn’t like pizza??

    To their credit, they do all seem to love most any veggie I’ll put out, so I always have a couple of choices there and they eat them. But if I make spaghetti they’ll eat only the noodles. If I make a casserole they might pick the meat and veggies out but will not have anything with sauce. They won’t eat a hamburger (although they will eat most of the toppings I set out). Every once in awhile I can get them to eat a bite or two of porkchop or grilled chicken, but only if it has absolutely no seasoning on it.

    I really try…at least I did for a long time. I would try to make things in fun shapes, fun colors. Still no.

    So we’re still in put it on the table and if they eat it, they do – if they don’t, they don’t – mode. But most nights they are still asking, “Mom, can we have chicken nuggets and fries for dinner”? BTW, I rarely give them any of those favorites for dinner, although we do for lunch sometimes.

    Lunch is a whole other thing. My 4 year old only likes peanut butter sandwiches for lunch, and her preschool (2 days a week) bans pb. So those days it’s pretty much a slice of bread and some fruits and veggies for her. She won’t eat cold cuts, cheese, tuna, etc. I have no idea what to feed her?

    Alas, they are all growing normally and are healthy, so I guess they are getting enough nutrition, but I do worry about it. I’m still hoping they will grow out of it. My middle child will sometimes try something new and then it’s a great big party.


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